Revenue Attribution / Build vs Buy

We were joined on this episode by our guest, Ole Dallerup from, as we go deep on:

  • Marketing vs Revenue Attribution and definitions
  • What data is needed – and ideal to have – for building a B2B revenue attribution model?
  • Should you build or buy? What are the tradeoffs?
  • How should you use the output of revenue attribution? How should you not?
  • First party vs third party data and quality

Recorded live on April 22, 2021

Hi, I’m Michael Hartmann I’m Naomi Liu and I’m Mike Rizzo. And this is ops cast, a podcast for marketing ops pros and rev ops pros raided by the MO Pros. The number one community for marketing operations tune into each episode. As we chat with real professionals to help elevate you and your marketing operations career.

Hello everyone. And welcome to ops cast, episode six. Uh, I’m here joined today by my co-host Naomi Lou, Mike Rizzo. Who’s normally here has been unexpectedly detained, so he won’t be able to join us today for this exciting conversation today, we’re going to be talking about revenue attribution. Should you build, should you buy, how should you use it?

Um, I think it’s a topic that we all probably have to go through and deal with in the marketing ops world. Um, so today you’re going to get started with, um, with Ole Dallerup. Who’s the chief technology officer at dream data. He’s joining us today from Denmark. So good evening. Ole so those of you who are online or joining, uh, please feel free to use the, the live chat here.

Uh, if you want to contribute to the conversation, feel free to ask, to be brought on air, and we’ll try to fit that in as well. But for now, Ole would you please introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you and, uh, Yes, of course. And thank you for having me, Michael, and the only, uh, it’s truly a pleasure.

Well, so I’m the chief technology officer at green data and co-founder, and we, I mean, really, we got into attribute. Um, and both the magazine side of attributions, but we like to kind of look at it, the holistic we’ll get back to that. But from the same question, like, should we build a buy? And we were working in a company called prospect.

Uh, where we really needed an attribution tool. I came from more the product side of things. We were building a review platform across pilot, and we were trying to understand how much money we’ll be generating from all kinds of channels. One thing was all the marketing channels, but, uh, someone says he can’t hear anything.

That’s uh Hmm. Okay. But, uh, So there’s my mic. You guys are hearing me, right?

We’ll we’ll we’ll continue. Um, so, so we, we were, we believe this large kind of consumer platform. Which drew a lot of traffic in, and we’re trying to understand how much business revenue we had to bring in from that. And the same time marketing was, of course we all the classical things, uh, of both doing content, uh, paid media, uh, all kinds of things.

And we were trying to really understand this from a holistic point of view of all the activities we’re doing to acquire our customers, what works, what doesn’t work, what brings in. What should we kind of invest more in, uh, and so we’re sitting in the management team and trying to decide us. So if we hire more software engineers to work on the consumer platform, or should we hire more marketers, uh, to kind of speed up that, uh, should we do more Google paid?

What should we do to acquire more customers? Both on the short term and the long term, uh, And we actually did have the data. So we actually had all the tracking data we had, uh, of course sales falls. We used HubSpot. We have like all these pieces of data. Uh, probably couldn’t find a tool that could take our historical data.

And then just process it and tell us what to do. And that was basically what we expected to find. We went looking for a tool that could just like, here’s our data. Tell us what to do. We could find that. Uh, I don’t know if that was the main Eve now looking back, it was maybe, but, but we were basically like Eve and I was, I mean, I dealt with marketing and marketing ops and once in a while, but.

Far from my primary job, my primary job was to like run engineering teams and build infrastructure and those kinds of things. Um, and so I was a little bit surprised. It was so poor. I was also surprise that sales castle, little about it, uh, because I was like, I mean, this must be the most important thing for you.

Like how, which leads to.

At the sorry. Hopefully. Yeah. So I think, you know, that hits on a, I think it’s one of those things about that, that we’ve maybe talked about a little bit before this, which is, I think there’s a little bit of a love, hate relationship across revenue functions for attribution modeling. Right. And I think your point about sales.

Maybe not paying attention to it or caring about as much as more than we probably all experience, but maybe it would be helpful to start with a definition, right? Like how do you think of revenue, attribution, which I think is the term you guys used versus marketing attribution and how are they related or store different.

So when we say bourbon, you attribution, we mean it from the broadest most kind of. Broad definition, you could get any activity, whatever it is, whether it happens in support in sales, marketing, in partnerships, wherever the touch is, as long as it helps you bring revenue, it is relevant the most, at least for me, the most classical kind of way of looking at marketing attribution is more on the side.

We’re looking at. I mean, if we take Google ads or Facebook ads, they look baby precisely at the activities add spring, kind of do what activities are. Add activities, drives revenue for you, which is. Uh, silo for me because well, does my Facebook ads kind of helped me drive revenue. They probably do, but will I have duties that touched both Facebook and my emails or BDRs or my support channels probably as well.

Well, should Facebook then get all of your. Um, probably shouldn’t give most of the honor. Well, if I acquired the customer Tuesday, Facebook, I think that can be. Where the Facebook should get most of the honor, but it should probably like get all the owner because there’s a lot of other activities in there that ultimate us.

And particularly if you want to look at it from a more holistic point of view in the management team, and I’m not talking about the management team as in the head of marketing, but the management team as we are in time management team of the company, and we care about the growth of the entire. What should we do?

Well, if we create more demand from creating more ads on Google or on Facebook or wherever we do at that, that’s great. But if our BDRs is actually a crucial path towards bringing in. Uh, revenue. Then we have to scale those as, as long as well. Or if we have other activities that is actually also important, they also do kind of bring in revenue and they are also important in a B2B world, which is kind of what we focus on the most is even more complex because, well, mostly you have more than one person you’re trying to hit.

Uh, and you often need to hit more people and target more personas that can be like for our own company. We often need to talk with marketing magazine ups or sales ops. Uh, we need to talk with BI teams. Uh, we sometimes need to talk with engineers and we often teach needs to talk with legal. That’s a lot of different personas you need to bring.

And they met her. Right? Uh, I think I can at least imagine that a deal is close to kind of, when we w if we were tracking whether a sale or legal, we’re looking at the legal documents we sent, then we know the deal is closed. Like, that’s a good indicator that the revenue is chosen. I have a question for you.

I, one of my questions is around, um, like socializing, this information tools, senior leadership team. Do you ever have issues around, you know, how do you present this information in a clear and concise way? That’s digestible for people who may not necessarily be. Looking at the data on a day-to-day basis and getting their minds around, you know, you know, it’s not one activity to one lead to one opportunity.

It’s, you know, the whole attribution model. And how does that, because, and I’m asking it for selfish reasons because I have,

so I think it all depends right. If I would. Kind of the prediction, I believe will soon. Like we are moving to, what is that in? If we kind of go Trey yes. Back sales and marketing, they’re very kind of siloed. And most often sales decided or marketing. Um, at least in a lot of companies, it was like that. Um, and that’s kind of how it was and the CEO was to be altruistic.

I believe that what is happening is some of the things we’ve also seen in product and engineering is in the old days in product engineering, we also had this problem. So project management, we called it, our program management decided what ideas to build, um, and they built some things that were good and a lot of horrible things, mostly horrible things.

Now today, I don’t think any modern techno company works. Product management and engineers and designers. They work really close together. They sit right next to a jail and fight together. I think we’ll see that in sales and marketing as well, since the markets and will get much, much closer, they’ll fight together and they’ll work together and they will much more see and realize that that marketing’s impact and sales impact.

They have to follow. It is not either, or it is both. They both have to be that the reason why I’ve stopped saying this is most of the companies we work with have realized this. Uh, and they, I believe strongly that they’re the ones that’s going to be kind of the leaders of the new world is those. They simply gonna make more money.

They’re gonna acquire customers cheaper and faster. Uh, and make more money. So this is like, how do you convince the management team? Well, first you have to convince them in this and kind of bring them into that. And then we can talk about attribution. So the complexity, um, w we were, you know, Naomi hits on Friday, the.

The biggest question of all is right. Let’s say you think that you need attribution modeling and you’re going to use it. Like, how do you use it? How do you present it to people who aren’t familiar with? You know, all the, all the sausage making underneath the, you know, the hood of how it’s working on mixing metaphors.

Sorry. But, um, so I just want to make sure I understand. So, you know, I think what I heard was I think most of us are familiar with marketing attribution, really focusing on, you know, Customer acquisition related things. And how are they tied to ultimately like somewhere in that handout, whether it’s ABM or traditional lead, you know, lead flow, where you say it you’ll go from marketing and sales.

Right. You know, how much of that was marketing and impacting. And I think what year where you described it goes all the way through the full customer life cycle, right? From prospect to. Yeah, opportunity to customer, to recurrent customer, right. In which involves pretension is it, did I understand it correctly?

From that standpoint, you understood the executive, you know, one of the things, um, I think that bags then is when you guys are thinking, like if you’re talking to a new client or a potential client, and what are you looking for is sort of the minimum data that you need to have available. For you to be able to produce something that’s actually usable and valuable for the client, whether it’s a marketing leader or a CRO, or because it sounds like you could be selling into multiple places then like the data is going to be critical.

Right? So what, like what data is. So we need, so usually we pull data in from a CRM system, the marketing automation system, and tracking on the website. If they don’t have an owner, like companies that are collecting that already, most companies are not. Then we have our own tracking script. We can. Um, so that’s kind of the sources we kind of pull data from that is the primary source.

We’ll also pull from paid media and other things, but that is not so much to kind of be able to build attribution that is more to be able to talk about opportunity, investment, those kind of things at a decent level, uh, which is also important. But it’s, that’s more my exit question than the holistic kind of question.

Um, so how much do we need. The truth is it depends a little bit on how long you’re doing this. That’s one factor that’s very important. If your journeys is very long, we need more data. If your journey is a very short, we need less. Um, so most of our customers, they have journeys between three and 18 months, I would say.

Um, uh, and during here, when I say journey, it’s not the sales journey, it’s the, from first touch to actually closing. Uh, Johnny. So he’s doing, these are shorter at least. So that’s the first step we have to, how much do we need it is everything from a few thousand visitors, maybe five, 10,000 visitors a month.

Uh, and then some deals, but it doesn’t have to be a deal. We do attribution also early on before. Um, that could be to a marketing qualified lead or an opportunity created a stage, whatever kind of your company has that makes sense for you, where you start being able to be predictable. Most companies are relatively predictable from opportunity created, uh, to, to deal closed.

Uh, yeah, I can, I can see Michael, uh, he alive on the field and he’s uh, well, maybe not, uh, It depends. Right. I think we would probably roll their eyes at say a predictability maybe. Right. I don’t know. And of course it is, it is right. It is only as predictable as it, as it can be, but to actually work and you can be able to say something you of course have to have certain amount of deals coming through a certain.

Right. Uh, if not, you would want to analyze even more, like, instead of talking about how much did we make on this Google ad campaign? Well, if you don’t have a much, you would want to talk about how much did we do. And ultimately, right, because there’s not enough details to optimize on. Can we switch gears a little bit?

I think, um, like, so some days I get it right, and you got a tracking cookie and you’ve got, you know, I think most of us in marketing ops would understand that. Um, I think one of the things I’ve always struggled with when I’ve worked through attribution and I’ve done. Build and buy. So this is kind of like the, it, we’re getting to that kind of question as well.

And one of the, one of the challenges I always run into is data quality is kind of a two-fold thing, right? Data quality in general, right. And consistency. And then the other would be, you know, especially sorry, all my sales friends. Right. But the discipline by Wolf, the salespeople and others are managing, you know, are they consistently updating.

Opportunity status and expected close dates and things like that, which kind of, that’s why I was kind of shaking my head and sort of rolling my eyes a little bit about that. Predictability on a funnel. Yeah. How, how do you have any suggestions or best practices for those of us in the marketing ops world, for how we can help, you know, guide, encourage, uh, twist arms with, you know, the rest of the revenue organization to help enable some of this.

So what we generally see and the best companies, what they do to make this work is that. So a lot of people, some companies think it starts by let’s first, let David quality high, and then we can kind of talk about attribution. What we generally see is that the best companies they do it the other way around, they say, let’s start with it.

Doesn’t necessarily have to be attribution, but any kind of data problem, you start with the data and then you can stop measuring people on. Uh, so, so some of the best companies we’ve worked with, they use attribution as a commission models. So attribution is committed. So it’s like, do we want to track it?

I think they want to drag it. Right. Uh, so do marketing want to pick a new tool that can track things in? I don’t think they want that tool. Right. So they push everyone to make sure it is true. So that’s one way of doing it. Another way. Stop presenting it as a leadership team. Show the number. Uh, like every week, every month where we kind of have these kind of talks, you show the number, say, well, do you know what?

We have so much attribution to whatever Google ads. So that’s really good. Uh, and we have so much attribution to the BDR team. That’s also very good. We’re not really seeing Facebook work yet, uh, whatever. And then some of the team might say, yeah, but Facebook works really well for them. It’s like, they’ve been showing.

We are, we are the engine company. So if we can see it, it doesn’t work. That doesn’t mean you can track everything. I’m not trying to say that, but you are trying to push everyone to think about how can we track the data? How can we measure it? And instead of saying, Hey, let’s first get the perfect data before we start using it.

You turn it around and say, we are going to get the perfect data by kind of Michigan. So you, so you’re building in the incentives to improve data quality over time is what you’re talking about. Exactly. Right. And other given times the data will be a little bit wrong. You fit something bad in your infrastructure, whatever you’re missing a tool that’s normal.

It doesn’t mean you can’t make decisions. It doesn’t mean that everything will be wrong. But it’s something you will be aware you have to be aware of for me that’s normal days. Like that’s also how we track, I mean, users in our product, there’s glitches. It’s normal, right? Yeah. So you use it, you kind of get sort of a, uh, I will have, I guess, for data quality, um, I, I suspect that there’s not a lot of, a lot of people in organizations who’ve ever been measured on data quality.

So, uh, that’s probably one for most of them. Um, so, so I think data quality is also a tough one because there’s not that like, what is it like, how do you miss it?

I mean, it’s a little bit hard, right? Do you track all users? Uh, is that the way of kind of, uh, data quality? Um, I mean, usually we, the profits we see more often is that, um, so we see, I would say we see two kind of big problems where I don’t necessarily have a good solution for one is when they have a lot of partners.

So they do a lot of partner sales, uh, And that is maybe a lot for cities. If it’s a small percentage of the business, it’s usually not that big a problem. But if it’s last is let’s say 80% or 70% of their business, it’s hard to push, but like for them, it’s hard to push the path and saying, Hey, you now have to track all this, um, that kind of doesn’t work, particularly dire partners, Amazon, like those kinds of companies, right.

Uh, then it’s hard sometimes. And then there’s sometimes when you have the very powerful sales organizations and actually the way they work sales is that they have their own personal spreadsheet where they manage their own accounts and they don’t really like to share this data. Right. It’s always why they don’t want to site.

And as a company culture where they don’t want. Eh, I don’t think it’s an attribution problem. It’s a management leadership proper. Right. But, but that’s the type of problems we had. It is hard to show. I had an internal cringe. When you said managing accounts and leads and opportunities by spreadsheets, that’s always kind of been a bit of a problem

now, or we’ll listen to the recording will have the same, just more react. And then we’ve all been through it. I know I have. Um, anyway, um, so, you know, um, one of the things is, you know, this is kind of the Genesis of your company, right? Is that you were looking to buy something and you ended up having to build something.

So. Yeah. How do you, you know, do you have a suggestion for, um, you know, customers, clients, people like us and just even how to frame out that thought process of, of should I buy, should I build, um, what are the trade-offs um, and you know, is there anything that you say you think maybe this is getting to the data quality and the.

Any, um, like, is there a minimum, like prerequisite set of situation, right? Whether it’s systems, tools, um, level of revenue, whatever it is that you think where it makes more sense to go from fairly small by the world. But you know, the, the, the step we always, uh, Generally recommend all companies to start doing, uh, any size is to map out where to actually track important thing, like not track, but where is the important things in our sales funnels actually happening and cellular phones?

Yeah. I mean like marketing and sales. What about kind of what is important? Like what do we believe is crucial for this to work? Most companies, they have a website that isn’t. Sometimes they have a lot of emails to send out. Maybe they have BDRs. Do we link them out weeds and similar things. And then I would sit down and consider how can I track this data?

So I have. Not so Google analytics as to data map. So, uh, whatever kind of, eh, let’s say you use HubSpot, HubSpot has the data HubSpot you can actually use if you’re an enterprise tier. So you can actually get the data out in that case, but let’s say you want a type of company that can afford HubSpot enterprise, then you want to consider what is the, how do I attract this data?

So I have it like in raw format, in a database, in a file. So I can actually have the. That’s the first thing you want to make sure of. And this is also the third-party cookie conversation. It’s the CDP conversation, customer data platform, conversation, uh, companies are having, you want to own data. I’m understanding what you say.

That first thing is the first thing is you say. Don’t don’t rely on the, well, I guess we’ll call them transactional systems, whether it’s marketing automation or CRM, but you’re talking about, you need to get that out into a place where you can actually do something with the data. Is that kind of what you’re, is that what you’re saying?

Okay. Yes, please. You can do that, right? I mean, whether you do it or like you, but you have to ensure you can’t get it out. Right. So you actually have it and own it and can do something with it, right? Because whether you are building your own are gonna use that. You need that data. So let’s say you start using beam data.

That’s great for us. You’ll start using us. If you don’t have the data, well, then we’ll have to stop collecting it. Right. We can’t do magic. I mean, we can’t magically kind of turn out data, right. So we have to start collecting it if you already, and the companies that get it kind of comes to us that already have.

We can actually show them how to use model a relatively fast, because we can just pull it in all of this cycle data. And I mean, then it’s just doing the metric of the modeling and that’s very easy for us. And then like we’re done, but if you don’t have that data, you start from scratch. And if your sales team is 12 months old while you know what you got to wait 12 months before you have a relatively good.

Right. So that’s the first thing. And that doesn’t matter whether you are buying a building, you need to do that and take very seriously on that. And that also includes considering whether you have a lot of offline processes, then consider how can you make some of them digital touches. Um, that could be by trying to encourage, uh, salespeople to send the client clients or prospects through a signup form so you can get a touch from them.

Um, it can be true having better content. Um, it can be true being better in doing some marketing, sending out more emails and so on. So you start having these types. My experience is that when you, as soon as you start getting a little bit more touches, you actually learn that a lot of those kind of people, they were already visiting your website.

You just didn’t know who they were. So as soon as you get them to register, sign up, you can actually start talking about who they are and where they already were there. Where are you at? Where are they? That’s the big post and minimum bar. If you want to talk to fusion at any more advanced level business, the minimum.

Um, then if you want to build it yourself so quick, can I interrupt you a little bit here, but you, I think I, again, I want to make sure I’m understanding. You’re saying, were you suggesting that if, if, um, if an organization’s got a go to market motion that includes offline or not, you know, non-digital, um, channels that you’re suggesting that they.

Pull back from that a little bit and go more digital at least temporarily to try to help accelerate the, the, I guess the insights that you can get from the error. So it’s not like you have to move everything digital, like, eh, I mean these days conferences is half, right. But let’s say kind of in a year’s time, uh, COVID is gone and we all look back to conference.

Right. And that works to you. What worked in the past. So you’re going to continue on that. That’s great. That’s not bad, but for example, at your booth, right? So maybe instead of having a computer that where you can sign up, you actually do a barcode. And if they use that barcode on their phone, The, uh, they get whatever a lottery ticket for something, right.

This way you start tracking them on that phone. Um, it can also be that, uh, you register them on normal batch scam, and then you upload them into Salesforce and campaigns. Right. And then that way you get a digital touch. So things have touches doesn’t mean like they go to your website. But it’s one way.

And like, that is best to like, if you can get customers to do that, then you can get tracking food footprint on them. And that’s great. But, but getting anything it’s of touch that actually, yes, this guy was touched by the conference. He attended that and we met with him. We spoke with him and getting into that Salesforce, comparing that.

You should definitely consider, like, because it’s so hard to prove that your conferences has any value. Yeah. So, okay. So it’s, to me what I think, I, I’m glad I asked the question because I think what you’re describing is a way to, uh, improve the capture of that offline activity. Bye, you know, whether it’s through technology, whatever.

So I think that’s what you’re getting at. Um, Naomi, do you have any questions? Yeah. Um, so, um, parents as to, you know, what do you think of how mature, the guess the marketing operations and just the industry is in general when it comes to accepting attribution. Right. Do you find that it’s still a challenge to.

Kind of educate people on what exactly it is and sell into an organization, or do you find that, you know, generally, most people are kind of, okay. We’ve, we’ve done all of our modeling. We’ve done all of the analytics. We’ve absorbed it all. Now we’re ready to move on to phase two or graduate into better, um, reporting.

And do you find that that’s a challenge still? Or where do you kind of see the industry? Eh, I would generally say that the industry is coming from the tech business and having been working with data and technology all my life. I would be very surprised in how bad the CB’s. Uh, I think a lot of businesses, they have very poor kind of ways of tracking and measuring things.

Most B2B companies we talk with, uh, Even those who are in a good state, they have vague weak signals from touch to kind of deal. Uh, they still talk about opinions or we think are, uh, the same, the best sales guys always says, this is how it is. Okay. Maybe it is maybe not so much. Um, eh, maybe we even see B2B companies that don’t have any tracking on the website.

Like. Not even like they have nothing. So I would say it’s pretty the average, I would say it’s pretty bad. Would you say a, like a people or a process issue or is it, it sounds like it’s a bit of both, right? It’s, it’s kind of a little bit of calm or a little bit of column B. I think it’s a people management, I think most it’s a management problem.

Um, I think. That is a lot in management. I mean, it depends. It’s very different for competent come to rise, but management want to be data driven. I think all management team says that, but I experienced that they, they don’t know what to actually do. This then kind of goes back to my original question.

Right? How do you kind of bubble up this information and get, um, you know, senior leadership to buy into things like this? Because at the end of the day, it is a, it is a spend that they are then looking to, you know, hit their P and L right. So I think part of it is, and I kind of. It’s a self-serving question too, because it’s something that I struggle with, right?

Like how do I, you know, serve up the need for attribution software, to my senior leadership team and to those that may not be necessarily as close and tied to the data where, you know, attention spans me when we really be 10 seconds, how do I get them to understand and absorb, like what attribution is it’s that I am still challenged with.

Yeah, what you described. I would argue that most senior leaders, um, who have not, you know, not really familiar are not familiar with this. Um, and in fact, I think I saw, I heard a statistic a couple of months ago that if you looked at boards, you know, something less than 10, it’s like less than 5% of board members have any kind of marketing.

Leadership experience. Right? So I, you know, I’m a, I’m going to take a shot at answering your question because I have a strong about it and then we can hear it as well. But in mine is that I still think there’s value in attribution modeling. Um, I’ve done it. I think where I’ve changed really is actually what you’re getting at, which is how do you use it?

And I think there’s a lot of value in using it to, to help inform. Decisions about where do you make your bets? You know, what tactics do you think you want to work on? What ones you don’t? I don’t think there’s a ton of value taking it up to the C-suite or senior executives, you know, cross-functional.

Simply because of what I just described. Right. There’s a lack of understanding of what market, how marketing works and what, you know, how long it takes for marketing activity, actually show in the pipeline. And then second, right. It’s just, it’s complicated math, even a simple attribution model. Right. And so trying to explain that, especially in S I think it, especially as hard to use that at that level, If you’ve got a long sales cycle, big ACV, right.

You know, um, business. So that, I mean, my, so my take is, you know, don’t use it for, for executive levels, you know, like this is how we justify marketing span and investment, but do it for marketing. To make smarter decisions about allocating resources, the challenge then may also come up that, how do you then even acquire such technology if you can’t justify to, and, and I’m just, I’m kind of throwing like, yeah, I am going to guess just given your position now.

Right. Then you, you come across this more, more often than either of us do. So I’d love to hear your perspective. So it’s. The companies that come to us, they often kind of in a spot where they’d been challenged on whether the generate. Uh, not like any value. That’s usually not the, the kind of conversation, but it’s like, they’re challenged to either invest more aggressively, like spend more money, like we need to grow faster.

So you come up with a plan on how to spend more money, but you have to be able to justify that the spend actually give a return. So that’s one way. And another way is that they are more pushed. Like, do we actually produce anything in that? What what’s the outcome? So what, what we do see is that they, they, they don’t report, like they don’t talk about execution at management level that I would agree.

I wouldn’t either. I would talk maybe about return of investment, what channels kind of give us the best kind of a terms. It’s more reasonable with such abuse model to work, to use. You will pick something and. You might even also have more than one attribution model you’re reporting on, uh, depending on what you’re trying to kind of look at.

Um, but, but I think it, isn’t interesting to report on some of them to the management level. I would do that at a high level. Personally, I would expect marketing. If I’m in a management team, that profile, I would expect that mountain comes with a report telling these are the high level channels we are making money on.

This is how much money we’re making on you. Therefore, I want to spend more time on these things. The next core I would expect men to like the, you need and the Benjamin team to do. Yeah. Yeah. But, but, but, but I agree, it’s not a board level, for example, I say what I say and at one point, and then I also know that in my last role, um, for a variety of reasons, um, I actually did report marketing attribution related numbers too at the, at the senior executive level.

And a lot of that was just because I think there, it was a brand new, like the whole idea of marketing being invited was a very set up. Sales driven organization. And so there wasn’t historically a lot of marketing involvement with pipeline activity, you know, revenue generating, lead, generating activity that was shifting.

And so it was the best proxy I had. To show that we, we, you know, there was an impact, right. Um, now when I get into it with the finance people, they’re like, well, what’s the incremental and that’s, that’s where it really gets, this is where it starts to break down. Right. How much can you say was actually net new or wouldn’t have been created through.

The way things were running before. Right. And that’s, that’s the Elway, that’s the unanswerable question in some ways. Um, so you have enough data. You can actually answer that. Uh, uh, so, uh, I mean, I can, that’s more data science kind of compensation, but, but you can actually do that. You can do some modeling with Marco Jane.

Michael T example, that’s common kind of mathematical model to do attribution on. Uh, and what you do there is you basically kind of draw a graph of all kinds of the touch points you have. And then what you try to do is you try to simulate when you remove some, one of the activities. So let’s say you remove Google ads, right?

And then you will see how much revenue would that. So you can actually simulate that with, it requires a certain, I mean, some level of data. So, so like now I said customers with five, 10,000 visitors would probably be a little bit more, or you need to generalize your kind of touches very much. Right. But, but it can’t be done.

And I think that’s, that’s the interesting piece is. Like, if you start doing these things, you can actually answer some of those super, super, super hard questions. We all want when we sit in the management team is if we, that we stopped doing Google ads, what would happen? This would happen if I spent a million more, what would happen?

This would happen. And you can actually predict that if you can have relatively a high percentage. Well, I, I think we could probably go on forever. Naomi, any burning questions that you have before we, um, yeah, I mean, I, I feel like this is a topic that could definitely continue or have a second episode, but I think that, you know, it’s definitely a lot of food for thought and definitely some really great information.

So thank you for joining us on this episode. Absolutely. So thank you. So again, thank you, Lou, uh, um, Tammy, uh, thanks for joining and adding. And again, um, for everyone who has been listening in, or who’s listening on the recording, thank you so much for being part of this as well. Um, look for more episodes coming up in the future, we’ve got several of them, uh, coming up.

Um, there’s potential, we’re changing the format a little bit, but it will still be a conversation though. Uh, it just may not be like. Um, and if you have suggestions for us, please feel free to reach out to me via LinkedIn or whatever. Um, you can always, uh, also joined the MO Pros. Uh, so the MO Pros dot com is where you can go for that.

Um, and you can always kind of keep up with these episodes here last but not least, uh, uh, work in, you know, people are interested in connecting with you or learning a little more about what you’re doing, how can they be. So, so go to read data that IO, uh, I mean, if you want to try out the product, we have a free offering, uh, and we have of course trials and demo requests.

If you are, uh, more into that, uh, at the me, you can also find on LinkedIn I’m. Sure. Terrific. All right. So that’s dream for those who are interested. Bulla Naomi, thank you. Have an excellent rest of your day and week. Why everyone? Bye everyone.