How do you define Marketing Ops?

In this episode, we dive right into the definition of Marketing Ops and why we think community and professional development are not yet consistent in this realm.

Recorded Live January 15, 2021


Hi, I’m Michael Hartmann and I’m Mike Rizzo. And this is Ops Cast, a podcast for marketing ops pros and rev ops pros created by the MO Pros. The number one community for Marketing Operations Professionals. Tune into each episode as we chat with real professionals to help elevate you in your marketing operations career.

All right, we’re live. This is awesome.

He’s they’re listening or recording. Welcome to the first episode of Ops Cast by the MO Pros. We are very excited to kick off this podcast with you all, all the rest of the marketing operations professionals, including my dogs there. Um, you know, of course we, you know, we’re, we’re happy to bring in anybody who wants to be a part of this and just learn or whatever.

Um, Today, we’ve got, uh, your hosts today to today are Naomi, Lou and Mike Rizzo. And I’m Michael Hartman, uh, today, you know, with this kickoff episode, one of the things we know is a challenge out there is just like, what is the definition of marketing ops? And so we’re going to talk a little bit about that, and then we’re going to talk some about how we got there and what we see is kind of the key things to learn, to do well in, uh, in.

And, you know, kinda a little bit about why there’s maybe a lack of, uh, you know, development opportunities out there in general. So we’re ready to kick it off. Um, if you’ve got a question, let us know, um, and then it will be able to bring you on as well. But for now, we’re going to kind of let everybody introduce themselves.

We’ll start with you Naomi.

Sure. So hi everyone. I’m Naomi and I am the director of global marketing operations at electronics for imaging or EFI for short. Um, and I spent like the last decade of my career working in the enterprise B2B software space for tech companies. And know, I really enjoy working in marketing ops because it’s one of those career paths that’s allowed me to exercise.

The right and left side of my brain. Um, I would say that I definitely came to my career in a bit of an unconventional way. Um, I’ve always had just a very strong technical aptitude. Um, I taught myself how to code and all of the kin and I built my first website when I was 12 or 13. And I’ve just always been fascinated with computers and that you could input something into this box and it would do what you told it to do.

Um, And I’m just super excited about the show launch and talking shop with people that I view as you know, much smarter than myself. So

how about, how about if I go next with Michael Hartmann? Um, I worked at a couple of different places, mostly demand gen and marketing tech at Freeman company, big events company. And similar to Naomi. I like I actually started my career in it management consulting and having an sharing degree coming out of college.

In fact kind of found my way into marketing through database marketing back when it was setting up call centers and doing a bunch of direct mail. So you, you know, I was one of the people behind you getting all those credit card, uh, offers, uh, for awhile. But, um, you know, as things have evolved, but when I went really.

Attracted me. It was the ability for, with the technology. And it was evolving was to be able to really understand what was effective or not. And so that’s been a big part of what I’ve enjoyed is really that, that piece of it, the other, the other big piece is I’m a curious sort of learner as well. And you know what I like about these ops roles that they’re in the middle of.

Yeah, there’s a little bit of marketing. There’s a little bit of it. There’s a little bit of finance. There’s a little bit of legal. There’s a little, there’s a little bit of sales, all of those different components of being a middle of that and having to kind of shift your focus and speak different languages.

If you will, has always been a part of what’s attracted me and kept me in it, Mike. Yeah. Uh, so I guess introduction wise, I I’m Mike Rizzo. I am the founder of MO Pros, the community that, uh, is hosting this show. Uh, but Michael, as you’ve heard from, as a graciously, decided to step in and, and help, uh, curate and craft some really nice content.

I think you’ll hear from myself and Naomi on a pretty regular basis as well. But, um, you know, I guess. The first thing to say is thank you to Michael for helping us out with this first run of the show. And then hopefully a continued, um, continued broadcast for everyone to participate in. So, you know, I think this is a prime example of why we come together as a community, right?

We want to help each other, uh, elevate our status in the, in the space of marketing operations. And so that’s largely why I had created the community at least early on in my career. I was, I was quite alone. As many of us are in the marketing ops function. And, um, I started the community in 2017. It was really, I don’t think you would have called it a community, then it was just a channel on slack.

People, I wrote a blog post about it. People showed up and kept asking to get invited and eventually we automated the process. Thanks. Be to the automation gods and over time we’ve grown. So, you know, I think as of today we have like 1,420 members in the community and, um, and we are trying to, uh, Find more and more ways to elevate each other in the space of marketing operations.

And, you know, really, again, a prime example of that as is Michael having an opportunity to step in and help share some knowledge and collect knowledge from everybody in the community on this, on this new show that we’re producing. So I’m really excited about it. Uh, And I hope that everybody else who ends up tuning in, at some point here in the future, you’ll be able to come in and talk shop with us and talk about all the hot topics and in marketing operations.

And I’m sure we won’t shy away from things like rev ops and CS ops and sales ops, and all of those things. As Michael alluded to you, you often have to touch many different roles in many different departments and many different functions. So, uh, You know, maybe you’re playing a little bit of that role and wearing that hat sometimes, and maybe you’re actually moving in that direction.

So we’d love to hear from everybody and I’m really excited about it. Awesome. Yeah. So this, this is going to be an interesting, uh, topic that we probably all sort of gone around the horn around a little bit. And I’ve seen a number of conversations from people, uh, whether it’s through our slack communities or other online forums or just one-on-one discussions is.

You know, you know, what is marketing ops? And since the show is really meant for marketing ops professionals or those who want to get in it, I think it’s important for us to start talking about what do we see is what is marketing entree? What are the components to, what are the things that are sometimes with it?

Some of the things are sort of always. And that’s kind of how I think about it, but yeah, maybe Mike, why don’t you start since this is your, you know, you started the community, like when you think of marketing ops, what do you like, what does that mean to you? And maybe a corollary is, you know, when, when people outside, like your, your parents ask you, like, what do you do?

And it’s marketing ops. How do you describe it to somebody who’s not kind of in the middle of it?

I know Naomi has a really funny answer for that question. Or at least at least we’ve talked about it in the past. Um, I, my parents, like certainly. They just stop trying to explain to people what it is that I do. They just say that I’m in marketing. Um, which is it’s, it’s a bummer because the nature of the role is so technical and so interesting, right?

Like marketing ops as a function. Um, I think you kind of, we talked to Naomi, you said at the beginning of your introduction, right. Left right brain and left brain. Right. We get to do very technical. Interesting strategic thought processes will also be in quite creative. It’s like trying to figure out how to piece together technology, uh, to accomplish a business.

Objective, I think is like how I would define marketing ops in a, in a rarely really light nutshell. Um, you’ve got business objectives. You’ve got tools. Marketing ops is a way to kind of bridge the gap between trying to achieve those outcomes with the tools that maybe your company has purchased. Uh, So, I don’t know that that would be my stab at it.

Uh, I, it going anything beyond that just gets confusing folks that aren’t in. I’ve just started to say it for marketing. It for marketing. I like that a lot. Yeah. I mean, I use, I use a similar sort of corollary or, uh, you know, version is, you know, people are more familiar with like accountants. Don’t actually still write things down in a ledger.

Right. They have technology that enables them to do that. And marketing ops is kind of that for marketing. So that’s, that’s what I think about. Yeah, I could see that. And I think, I think what happens really fast too, is that like, um, you see a transition from, you know, like it’s not just about the tool though, right?

Like, um, I think that’s probably where the core of my passion comes in. Um, for the marketing ops community at large, you know, thinking about MO Pros in general. It’s not just about being really good at leveraging a piece of technology to do a function of your job. So like, oh, I agree with you, you know, using.

You’re not writing things in a ledger. You’ve got tools for that now, um, is, is definitely the step in the direction of marketing operations, right? Like we, we use the tools to better enable ourselves and our, our team members to achieve their outcomes. But like, it’s so much more than just being an expert inside of like one particular tool set.

Uh, my son, my son is going to join us for the call. Uh, so hold on.

So Naomi, how about you? And I, you know, well, Mike’s dealing with real life here. Um, talk a little bit about when you think of it, like when you, but once you get past the, like how do you explain it to somebody who’s not in it? Like, what do you think of is the components of marketing opposite? You know, and I, and I know I would think of it.

It’s like, these are the non-negotiables, these are almost always part of it. And then these other ones, sometimes they’re there, but not always depending on the size of the company or they’re embedded in kind of the people, but not necessarily a formal, uh, or chart component. Yeah. I mean, I, and Mike and I have talked about this at length as well, too.

And it’s interesting because he comes at it from like a small or medium size company perspective and I’m coming at it from, you know, maybe a larger enterprise perspective. And, you know, from, from my perspective, yes, the technology piece is a huge component of it. But a lot of my day to day is around managing like timelines.

People’s expectations, technology adoption change management is a huge one. Anxiety management and not so much like on Michael for my team, but like on behalf of, you know, our business partners as well, too, right? Because technology can be scary if it’s not something you’re, you know, if you’re in deep, you don’t necessarily have strong technical aptitude, or if you are not somebody that’s in the tools all day long, maybe, you know, your skillset and your expertise lie somewhere else.

You know, there can be anxiety when things change all the time as they do in our roles, you know, it’s even hard. I don’t know about you guys, but for me to keep up with everything that’s happening, all these tools that are coming out, all of the acquisitions that happen, all of the, you know, you know, new releases and new features, it’s just constant.

Right. And so just imagine what that feels like for somebody that is not directly interfacing with the tools. And a lot of that is, you know, I feel at least on my side, um, because we are a centralized ops team is how do I. And this is what keeps me up at night, too. You know, aside from rogue emails, going out to the entire database at 3:00 AM in the morning, like, you know, that hasn’t happened for a very long time, knock on wood, but you know, things that keep me up at night is, you know, how do I make sure that I’m set the, the knowledge gap between my team and the business partners that we support?

Get bigger and bigger and bigger over time. Right? It needs like, we need to make sure that they’re coming along with us on this journey. So they know what to do, know how to do it, know what to expect. And that’s something that I feel on the ops side is that’s how I would define it too. It’s a lot of it honestly is changed that.

Yeah. I love that idea of anxiety management. I’ve never thought about it from that perspective, but I can see things like an email. It’s going to go out to a pretty large audience and is everything buttoned up? Right? Do we have the right dates and times for our webinar or do we have it where the person’s first name is going to go out with all those things that we all have probably gone through something going out that wasn’t right.

Yeah, I actually, so for me, it’s funny, I always have a story because I think they have a friend who literally is a neurosurgeon. Right. And I, you know, I don’t know many, there’s probably nobody in marketing ops who has quite the responsibility. Right. It doesn’t mean that it’s not important that you get things right.

I think I, I, you know, and I’ve had new people on my teams. I’ve always kind of said, look, especially if they’ve never done push button, if you will. And a big email, like just know that, right. Your anxiety is going to go down over time. And at some point you’re going to have one that’s not going to be around.

Right. And we’ve probably all gone through it. Um,

yeah. Well, yeah. My anxiety has it gone? I still,

I mean, I’ve run a community of, you know, not that many, you know, I think it’s a great site. It’s giving you the, I’m sure there’s more of us out there, but like I send an email to around 1400 of us every once a month and I still get nervous every single time I hit send. And so yeah, step into my office,

we’d like maybe be like a Zen therapy session or something like that. Yeah. And I think like, going back to what you’re talking about, as far as like making sure the knowledge gap doesn’t increase, um, Naomi, you know, between business partners and your team and all that stuff. I think that, you know, I asked the question in our actual community forum around.

You know, defining what it means to be kind of a certified marketing operations professional and, and, you know, letting the cat out of the bag a little bit. Like, I think that’s one of my biggest missions for this community is trying to figure out, like, in the answer to this question, like, what is it, what is a marketing operations professional really?

Do. I think we have an opportunity as a collective group. Not just us on the call, but every single member of this community and those that aren’t yet in it to try to define what it means to be a marketing operations professional, and actually become like a certified marketing operations professional, right?

Like, You’ve seen like certifications for ISO and all that stuff that are usually driven by external kind of factors that say that there needs to be an adherence to excellence. And therefore this external agency kind of creates this thing that people need to, um, to level themselves up to or organizations to level themselves up to.

I think it’s actually a little bit reversed in this case. Um, I think for, for a long enough, we’ve been trying to. To illustrate the importance of the function of marketing operations. And today I think it’s seen as a pretty mission critical function inside of an organization for those that actually have the technology suites inside of their tech stacks, right.

They, they know they need someone to own these tools to make them to make them work right. And to make them sing and to get some ROI out of them. But I think there’s still a job to be done in terms of. Managing up, but it’s kind of the way that I refer to it. And I think our responsibility as professionals in this space, and as this community continues to grow is to define what it means to be a certified marketing operations professional, and go beyond the lines of just technology and leveraging technology and being an expert in Marketo, for example, or an expert in HubSpot.

Right. Just because I’m certified in that platform, doesn’t mean I’m a certified marketing ops professional. The certified marketing ops professional. And what it really means to be in marketing ops is a lot of what you were just talking about. Naomi, like, yes, I do come from the smaller organization side of things and you’re in the enterprise side of things, but the, uh, the day in day out challenges that we’re faced with.

Pretty pretty similar, right? Like I’m, I’m going across a quote unquote party lines as I do my air quotes. Um, so go talk to sales ops and talk to CS ops and talk to the it team and ensure that they all have buy-in on what we are going to do at each stage of the funnel. As people come through this tech stack.

And I think that’s really where you start to step into the realm of what it means to be in marketing operations. Right? Like you’re really starting to engage these other functions. You’re not just like super, super versed at writing, you know, queries and, and that kind of stuff inside of Marketo or something like that.

I don’t know. It was just my 2 cents. Yeah. I think you’re hitting on something. I think going back to the, like, what is, what is included in marketing ops? I think one of the things that. Almost always, if not always, there is technology stack required management, right? Both the day-to-day operations of it and the ongoing strategy of that, how it fits in.

Um, once you get past that, I think the other, um, responsibilities in marketing operations tend to vary quite a bit, actually. And I think that’s part of, part of the challenge here is that, and it’s part of why I think the majority of the available training certification and things like that is centered around the technology, you know, the vendors and those, those kinds of things, but it doesn’t really, you know, if you want someone who’s going to come in and be able to not only do that, plus be able to think about how does this all relate to the whole customer journey across marketing, to sales, to support.

Then that requires a different mindset about thinking about things and sometimes making trade-offs about, um, how you use technology across the different parts of the journey. So, you know, you know, then you layer on top of that then company size and where they are, where the growth opportunities are, how they go to market and, and a little bit about, you know, where you are in terms of your, you know, are you more of a hands-on individual contributor?

Are you a team of one, or are you a leader of people within this part? And I think, you know, I think if, if there were things that could be addressed across all that, that’s, I think that’s where I would love to see, you know, professional development for this. Not only for people coming in, but also people who are moving up in their career.

So how do you know, what do you like? What do you know? What would you. Is going to be the feature of that. Where do you see that going, you know, over the next, you know, year, five years, 10 years. Hmm. That’s a good question. Naomi, what do you think? Where are we going for the next year? Five years. Well, I mean, like is COVID still around.

I mean, I think that really depends. Right. So, I mean, I think if we kind of, just to kind of circle back a little bit on, you know, like, what does it mean to be a marketing professional? I think that definition as well, like it’s going to vary depending on if you want to be an individual contributor or if you want to lead a team, for example.

Right. And there, you know, it depends on what you want are you career? And I feel like. You know, definitely the, the, if you want to lead a team and the higher up you go in your career, the further away you get away from the technology. And it’s like kind of that fine balance between, you know, at least for me, as well as like, I don’t want to ever be too far away from the technology that I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Right. Like if my team comes to me and ask me a question about something or my opinion, I need to still know that, you know, I have the data and information to back that tobacco that up, um, as far as where the industry is going to go in five or 10 years, I mean, I would like to think that the work that we’re doing right now is going to help to.

You know, not when people ask me what I do and I say marketing ops, they’re not just a blank stare. And then I’m getting back. You know, my parents will think I worked for CSUs, which is like the Canadian version of the CIA or FBI, you know? Like they don’t have no clue. They just are like, when you’re traveling for work again and you work with computer.

Oh, okay. You know, it’s like, it doesn’t matter how many times I try to explain it. They’re convinced I work for the secret or something.

Uh, you know, there’s truth in jest, right. They joke about it, but I’m like, secretly, I think you guys actually believe this, but, um, yeah. I mean, it’s, I, I, I think that there’s just a lot of technology that’s out there right now. And I think that in the next five years you might see, you know, some, a lot more acquisitions that we’re seeing right now, right.

Just continued acquisitions and you know, a lot of people kind of. Seeing, like, do we need all of this technology to be able to do what we need to do? Or can we like simplify things a little bit? Cause there is, there can be a lot of. Right. I think people kind of get, certainly get zoomed out, you know, another year of virtual events.

I don’t think we’re going to have to get a little bit more creative when it comes to, how do we want to engage with our potential customers, right? Yeah, no, I totally agree. And you can definitely get like, um, You know, I think they call it zoom fatigue and all of that stuff. The tech, the tech factor, you know, the there’s a lot of noise in the technology space.

I think we’ve all seen the MarTech, you know, 8,000 now, um, from Scott and his team, Scott Brinker, for those that maybe haven’t heard of it. Um, go look it up. And then, um, yeah, I think from a marketing operations kind of professional development opportunity in the future, Um, I think we’ve all kind of touched on it today, right?

Like we’ve talked a little bit about, like, it depends on what role you kind of want to have Naomi, you’re saying you never want to be far enough away from the technology to, to not be dangerous. Right. And, um, really know exactly what it is that you’re, you’re talking about and have data to back it up and that kind of stuff.

I kind of went the other way. Right? Like I ended up moving from a marketing ops role into more of a growth role. And then now I’m doing community work. Um, and so I’m, I’m about as far away from like a traditional marketing officer role, as you can be these days. Um, but the point is, is that like, I know enough of like how the technologies can work and can function that.

Ideally what we do is we go hire these technologists, um, as a function to. To really drive the excellence in that tool, in that suite. Right? So like you, you kinda know at a certain point you make a decision. Do you want to maybe move up a little bit, uh, in terms of strategy and, and, and kind of the approach to leveraging technology in your business and overseeing how that all fits into an organization, uh, and then hire talent that you trust to go run it.

Um, but you come from a place that says, Hey, I know. I know that this tool can function largely in this manner. And therefore, you know, there’s, these kinds of asks that are reasonable to make. And I think I kind of, I go back to. I think, Naomi, you talked about learning HTML. I too, in my early days, taught myself HTML, um, started building emails and websites and all that stuff.

And then I went a couple of steps beyond that after I joined my first SAS company Mavenlink and I was like, Hey, what’s this Ruby on rails thing all about right. Like, cause we were built on Ruby. Um, and our website was running on rail, like Ruby on rails. So I went and took like a 30 day rails course to just try to understand how to do.

Development work. And that was, I mean, part of it was that like, am I going to stay in marketing ops? Cause I have no idea what the career path looks like. And then part of it was like, you know, um, if not like maybe development work is like a really good path because look, there’s money to be made there.

Like it’s a hot market. Still is. But the other part was, Hey, as I go to ask my team at this really early stage, we were like under 30 employees at the time. Like when I got to ask the team for functionality, that’s either in the app or in the website, I’d like to know that what I’m asking for is like recent.

Right. And so this kind of goes back to the point that I was making, where maybe I’ve learned enough in marketing ops. And I think about like developing myself as a professional, that I can move into a place where I, I know enough about how things work so that I can ask for an, a reasonable expectation of how to bring a program to life.

Right. I may not know the latest feature of HubSpot or Marketo. Uh, but generally speaking, if I get the updates, like I’ve, I’m well versed enough in this space to just go and, you know, hire the talent that needs to be in place. And so I think like, you know, maybe the path in terms of like, what is your career path look like in marketing operations?

It’s it’s at some point there’s a split that you, it seems like still today. You’re either going to become a pretty deeply entrenched technologist because you just absolutely love making this tool do really, really cool things. And boy, do I fit into that bucket, but I also fell in love with the idea of like collaborating at the strategic level to try to like make a program come together.

Um, So, you know, maybe you, you move into like a business strategy role, which I, which is, I think like why we see functions like rev ops kind of popping up and stuff like that. Um, I think that’s a whole other conversation for another day, but, uh, but hopefully, hopefully we’ll get, I think even just in today’s conversation, I’ve already, you know, I think there’s a couple of topics that we could go deeper on.

You know, my, my, my take on this is what’s really missing, I think in terms of. Training development is I’ve always thought of, even though I’ve got a technology bent, I’ve always wanted to understand context and thought of technology as an enabler for in general sense of a business objective, right. Or a business strategy.

And I think, um, the real challenge for people entering it is, you know, There’s deep technical stuff, and that’s relatively easy to get access in terms of training and learning and communities and things like that. What’s not really easy is training or development opportunities and things like that around the, you know, the strategy behind marketing and how to this is the technology and analytics and things like that.

Play a role in it. And then how’s that work. And I think, I think to me, it’s really easy to get enamored, you know, I can make this technology saying, I think you could do something really cool. I think there’s way you said it might. And that’s great, but if it’s just for the cool factor and it’s not for some sort of objective, then it’s not really going to help build the, the, the rest of the organization’s view of marketing ops as a strategic partner.

And I think that’s what happening is one of the challenges I think we all run into is. Yeah, there’s always sort of two to two parts of marketing ops or even rev ops or all these other ones. Right. Which is, there’s always the highly visible stuff, right? The email that’s going out the door, the ads are going out.

The webinar that we’re supporting that the rest of the organization sees in a really visibly, but then there’s the other part of the iceberg that’s below the surface of the water, which is making sure that Marquetto and Salesforce sync is happening. Right. You know, when we do a webinar that we’re capturing, whose whose honor correctly, are we capturing, you know, where are we going to market with ads so that we can assess are they actually being effective?

And to me, that’s where you need to have both capabilities, but you need to be able to have someone who can come in and not only do that, but also be able to describe the value we’re adding to the organization, because B you know, which is always a challenge. And in some way, Um, our marketing partners often get more credit for a lot of the programs and things like that because the creative partner led is much more visible than what we have historically done.

And to me, that’s one of the challenges we’ve got. And I think the more we can provide people with, uh, communities like this, or even training opportunities that help help that promote from a business strategy standpoint will be useful. So, yeah, for sure. And I think like, You’re at you’re touching on another thing that is always a hot button item for me is as a marketing ops professional.

And thinking about like being an advisor, right. Um, I think that’s why so many of them move to, uh, Move into like agency type of roles or consulting type of roles is because I think we want to be strategic advisors and we want to be involved in the strategic discussions because those other departments, the leaders in marketing, right?

Like communications or design or anything like that, maybe they may not know how the technology could do something. And so they, they try to lean on us, but sometimes they don’t know what questions to ask. So I think that’s something like maybe we can unpack in another show or something. We think about like, what kind of questions can you ask your marketing ops team to try to like execute your programs and, um, you know, deliver something really, really unique.

Uh, but I don’t know. There’s, I’m sure there’s a ton of opportunity. That’s great. All right. So yeah, I think. We’ve got a ton of stuff that I know that we’re going to be able to get to in future episodes. So I’m excited about that. Is there anything maybe just on a personal level, like, are you looking forward to 20, 21 about, um, I think we all were hoping that it would look better than 2020 so far.

I’m not sure that’s the case from a general worldview standpoint, but how about, how about you anything you’re looking forward to, uh, I’m, I’m personally looking forward to seeing the community grow and seeing this show continue to. Uh, grow, um, and, and hopefully know just no more, no more COVID one, one day soon.

Yeah, I would have to agree with Mike sentiment, just super excited to feel an engagement that’s happening in both the slack channel and also our new online community and just, you know, no more COVID hopefully. Um, and just seeing how people will combat zoom fatigue while still keeping people engaged in new and creative ways.

Um, always looking for different and creative ways to generate leads, especially when everyone’s kind of in the same boat, stuck in front of a computer. Right. And we’re not inter interacting with each other. And I think there’s going to be some interesting things that come out of this, but hopefully we kind of get back to assemblance of, I guess, a new normal sooner than later.

Yeah, I agree. I hope that we can take this online community and bring it back to some in-person engagements. One of these days here and really get a chance to take counsel. Some of these amazing MO Pros. I don’t know that’ll happen in 2021. Maybe it’s aspirational thinking, but 20, 22. Yeah, I want it. I want to, I want to be able to strip new normal from our whole, you know, vocabulary, but

so, you know, I think this has been a great conversation. Thanks Mike. Thanks. You know me for those of you who’ve been listening or listening online afterwards. Thank you for being a part of this. We’d love your feedback on the show, the topics, um, you know, this format, you know, this is something new we wanted to try this.

We’re more of a talk show. So if you in the future, want to be a part of this, either as a guest or as just someone calling in and asking you questions, we would welcome that. Um, you know, if you’re not part of the MO Pros community, you should go out there and do that. Um, and that’s it. The MO Pros dot com T H E M O P R O

You know, just, uh, send us join there, send us, uh, feedback about the show, send us suggestions for topics. And, uh, we look forward to the next one. If you want to, you know, keep up with these, uh, podcasts as we record, you know, get them posted afterwards. So you can go to the MO Pros dot com slash ops casts slash ops C a S T.

So until next time, thanks. We look forward. Thanks. Bye. Thanks buddy.