Ops Cast | The Importance of Mental Health in Ops with Courtney Chatterton

Michael Hartmann: Hello. And welcome to another episode of OpsCast brought to you by demo MO Pros powered by marketing ops.com today I’m Michael Hartmann, your host and joined today by Mike Rizzo in this, the year of

Mike Rizzo: The year, the MO Pro Hey everybody. Glad to be back.

Michael Hartmann: Yeah. We’ve got a long story to tell later, maybe when we post this online about what’s been going on, why there’s a little bit of a gap here, but anyway, get into it today.

So joining us today to talk about a really important topic mental health is Courtney Chatterton. Courtney is currently in content marketing at hyper proof, a startup in the security assurance and compliance operations space. Prior to her role at hyper proof, Courtney has held several roles in marketing and operations, including revenue op.

Demand gen email marketing. And in addition, she is a freelance writer that is does work independently as well as is active in the Rev Op co-op community a, another affiliated community that we also know [00:01:00] about. So Courtney, thank you for joining us today.

Courtney Chatteron: I’m glad to be here,

Michael Hartmann: So this is one that is gonna be an interesting, I think, topic and hopefully helpful for a lot of people that maybe are avoiding this topic. So thank you for helping to normalize the conversation about the topic of mental health Courtney, especially in the context of marketing and revenue operations.

So before we dive into the topic, could you, why don’t we talk about your career journey first, like share what that path has been like for you? cause you’ve had a diverse set of things, although somewhat in and around marketing and sales in operations. So why don’t you share that with our listeners to begin with.

Courtney Chatteron: Sure. So I’ll start way back. I grew up in a small town in Illinois and I moved to the Chicago area and I went to school at Northwestern where I was exposed to a lot of new things, especially marketing and learning about the psychology behind what people think and do, especially when it comes to buying [00:02:00] and selling and.

From there. I worked at a neuroscience backed writing agency that did a lot of writing to help communicate like insurance benefits and other employee benefits to fortune 100 and 500 companies. And from there I stepped into the B2B SAS world. I started working at a nonprofit tech company called neon one, where we sold fundraising and CRM solutions for nonprofits.

And then. I was a content writer and then I had my first foray into marketing operations there and I learned Pardot. And then I got recruited out to bring my Pardot skills to another company and they were in the dental healthcare space. And from there I was on a demand generation team. I was trying to do a lot. Marketing analytics and hit a bunch of roadblocks. So they put me on the revenue operations team where I had [00:03:00] some more like tools to play with. And I unfortunately didn’t really like it. And so from there I quit my job and I. Went on a freelance journey and was doing content marketing for a variety of clients.

And then I got once again, recruited to join a really fun, awesome startup that I really enjoyed working at, which is hyper proof. So I went from content writing to operations to back to writing.

Mike Rizzo: I think the overlap there though. I think a consistent trend one of the things I’ve talked about with some of the, some of our peers in this space is like how, and I think you and I, Courtney have even like slacked about this together. I’m pretty sure where like really strong content writers are really good.

Like operations people too. Cause they have to like really think through so much of the persona and the like CTA and the, and if you’re really [00:04:00] trying to

Michael Hartmann: user journey,

Mike Rizzo: yeah. Like the journey, all of it. And I, so there’s, if you enjoy the content writing. Function and you’re in marketing ops.

You may find yourself in greater demand than you realize call out to the wild. We need somebody. exactly. We need some good documentation right

Michael Hartmann: use that.

Mike Rizzo: Yeah. We all need a little bit more documentation in our life.

Michael Hartmann: the truth. Yeah. I’m just, I’m curious though. So I know you said that you oh, I wanna, so the jump from content and writing to to ops, I get the point Mike’s making about, there’s a connection there in terms of like focus on details and stuff like that, but I’m just what, was that something that you pursued or were you pulled into that by other people? How did that happen?

Courtney Chatteron: I was definitely pulled into it. It was, I was really loving content, but I was really good at Pardot and I was really good at thinking through everything. And so I got pulled of fell into it, [00:05:00] cause I had an ops brain and I do have an operational brain, but I also have a brain that is complicated and complex and mental health is important. And so that’s really why I left operations.

Michael Hartmann: Got it. Yeah. Let’s so I know you’re passionate about that. So why don’t we, why don’t we go there? Just for our listeners, why is it that the topic of mental health is so important to you and why you want to, like, why are why do you want to talk about it here on this.

Courtney Chatteron: Yeah. Mental Health’s really important to me because when I was in college, I had a really good friend that pass away due to suicide. And so that really just sent my world tumbling. I was living in an upside down world for so many months and years after, and it really put things into perspective that I have to take care of myself.

So in a way, I always say that he saved. because I had to start putting my mental [00:06:00] health as a priority. And whenever I don’t put my mental health as a priority, I fall down and then have to fight to get back up. And I actually have a, I have a tattoo on my, the inside of my wrist. That is a D 20.

So a 20 sided dice, like in Dungeons and dragons. And then I have his name in Hindi cause he was Indian. and it’s my reminder every day to keep rolling. Not every day is gonna be a great day. Not every day is gonna be a bad day. And so that’s what really got me into being a mental health advocate.

But I was a mental health advocate before that, just because I was depressed at a young age and I was never afraid to talk about it.

Michael Hartmann: I think there’s a lot of people who don’t talk about it. I. I had another, a similar situation where I, it was actually in high school where a friend of a friend, actually a girl, I was dating her best friend committed suicide. And it was, yeah, we just didn’t talk about it. And I, think it’s unfortunate.

I think you and I talked about this Courtney about maybe not exactly the same kind [00:07:00] of thing, but how there are other topics that are taboo to talk about things like miscarriages. I think there’s a lot of. A lot of people out there who go through suffering with that without knowing that they, there are other people who would be willing to help them through it.

So I think it’s really good to bring these things out into the forefront. As sad as that is, hopefully there’s some benefit that comes out of this at the end. So go

Mike Rizzo: I think it’s yeah, sorry. I, and it is just, it’s just a thing that just rocks your world, as you said, right? Courtney happened to. I, to a dear friend of mine lost someone very young. And it was amazing how much that impacted all of us around. Not just the company that we all worked for, but also the broader community.

And through that experience I was. Made more aware of just how important it is to try to. Talk about this stuff. They shared their [00:08:00] journey on what it was to go through those struggles with this individual and how they did as much as they could. But sometimes, sometimes it, it doesn’t always went work out the way that you want.

Obviously. But the, like the importance of this particular topic is that it needs to be out in the open a little bit more. And I think it was not a little bit more like a lot of, bit more . But also I wanna say, oh gosh, I think it was like some highlight reel from a fight in the UFC just recently.

Like the

Michael Hartmann: Oh, yeah. Conor McGregor. Was it con McGregor or somebody else?

Mike Rizzo: I can’t, I don’t I

Michael Hartmann: I saw this though.

Mike Rizzo: enough. But it was recent and it was incredible. This fighter, this in, yeah, just incredibly, passionate athlete. Finishes a fight wins and then decides that he needs to like champion the importance of talking about mental health.

Because his best friend or good friend of his had recently

Michael Hartmann: I think it was that I think it was

Mike Rizzo: I think it [00:09:00] was that day. That from what I saw but it’s great. Like here we are. We’re watching. Macho, man.

Courtney Chatteron: Masculine things.

Mike Rizzo: one of the most PO possibly one of the most masculine things where stereotypically, you wouldn’t expect someone like that to ever say a message like that.

But regardless of that stereotype or not, I think it’s great that those topics are coming up in a, an athletic, environment where you wouldn’t expect them and then as well as here on this show. So I, I appreciate that. We’re all talking about it. I’ve certainly seen others on LinkedIn bring this up a number of times, and just talking about taking a break for themselves and what that really means and not achieving burnout. But for me, I’m like, I’m curious, do you see an overlap between mental health Courtney and this idea of burnout? Or do you think that there’s different things and people need to be aware of what it means to just be like burnt out versus, what we’re talking about here?

I don’t know if there’s any difference there I’m, I’m just trying to explore the water a little bit.

Michael Hartmann: And maybe [00:10:00] it’s like mental health and maybe we’re dancing around it. Is that depression? Is it

Mike Rizzo: Yeah.

Michael Hartmann: thoughts? Is it other things.

Mike Rizzo: Yeah.

Courtney Chatteron: Yeah, I think that they definitely go hand in hand, at least for me, when I talk about mental health, I am living with bipolar disorder. I’ve been depressed since my teens and I’m super anxious. And I’ve had really awful bout of burnout where it’s just, I feel like it’s just too much work and not enough time for myself.

And that just exacerbates all of my underlying conditions. And it really just creates like a toxic environment in my head. And I, because of burnout, I actually was hospitalized and I was in the psych ward for a couple of days last December. And that led to a leave of absence and it helped me get my ducks in a row.

And shortly after I went back, I was like, you know what? I can’t do ops anymore. I too many fire drills. I I take it all too personally. And it just [00:11:00] goes straight to my head and I couldn’t do it anymore. So that’s really what culminated. And so I haven’t really talked too much about that.

And so I’m trying to be brave and do it.

Mike Rizzo: You are being incredibly brave right now. I have to say that. And I think for anybody who listens to this episode a they’re gonna be like mad props to you. And then B I hope that for those that hear it, think. Gosh, like maybe this isn’t the right space for me because I’m experiencing similar things or what have you.

Michael Hartmann: I think there’s something about people in ops that at least the ones I know of, they are curious, they wanna solve problems and they Some of it is I think there’s this desire to just go the extra mile, to do things. And I see that a lot in marketing in general, I think in some other functions, but marketing for sure.

And ops for sure. And

Courtney Chatteron: sales too.

Michael Hartmann: yeah, and then I think what I’ve seen in some environments is those kinds of, sort of heroics are celebrated. And become part of an organization’s sort of cultural [00:12:00] story. And I think it’s really dangerous when that happens personally. I just I think that should be the exception, not the rule.

It’s not to say that people shouldn’t care about the work. It’s not that they shouldn’t work hard, but there’s a difference. And this is the hard part is recognizing when is it I’m working hard to where I’m damaging knowing himself and the organization. Other people around me to Mike’s.

Courtney Chatteron: My brother.

There’s a difference between a high performing culture and then a culture where everything is so high performing and so at such high expectations and so much pressure that it just becomes toxic. So it’s also the question of what is a toxic word culture. And for me, work life balance is so important.

And I went to a company that didn’t have unlimited time off, and I really suffered there. I couldn’t take a mental health day when I needed it. I couldn’t take a break and my mom was in the hospital for two weeks and I couldn’t really take additional time off to really help out with that. It was just, it was really hard.

So I’m happy [00:13:00] now to be at a company that does have a unlimited time off and allows me to take time when I need it. So I can take care of myself and my life because work is only a small portion of what we do. And I think that’s also important to recognize.

Mike Rizzo: It totally is. And I it is a small portion of what we do. Unfortunately it takes up the majority of our darn day

Which is such a bummer, but,

Michael Hartmann: and some nights and some

Mike Rizzo: and sometimes nights and weekends, but as long as you don’t overdo it and people aren’t celebrating you working 60 hour weeks, they’re yelling at you and not yelling.

Maybe they’re politely suggesting you stop doing that.

Michael Hartmann: Or maybe not. So not so politely.

Mike Rizzo: Maybe not so lately sometimes. That’s okay. You shouldn’t work 60 hour weeks. The thing that you were talking about just a moment ago in terms of toxic work culture and the importance of what mattered to you in terms of like having unlimited time off, I think as a people manager, right?

I’ve had a few opportunities in my career to do that. That is something for for those listeners who are [00:14:00] tuning into this, for themselves, trying to understand what this might mean. And then maybe you’re thinking about people management, I was just tuning into what you were sharing Courtney and going, gosh, you know what?

Yeah, that is a really interesting reason why you want unlimited time off. A really valid reason just to be able to have the freedom to. Hey, somebody got sick, and for better or worse, the pandemic has at least implanted those thoughts in a lot more leaders’ heads than beforehand.

But I think a lot of folks were just like, Ugh, this younger generation of employees are so demanding and they just want, they want to, what is it?

Michael Hartmann: Mike’s looking at me as the old guy on this

Mike Rizzo: No. They’re, they wanna eat their cake and have it too, or however you turn that phrase. I always mess that one

Michael Hartmann: Now I’m, I can’t get it right now that you just messed it up.

Mike Rizzo: But I think that it’s a really valid thing for people to think about. And as you think about going into people management These are, a post about this and some discussions [00:15:00] around it in the community recently for career development are things that completely shift, whether you’re doing marketing ops Courtney, or you’re doing, demand gen or content creation, as you move into these people roles, and you need to start thinking about their wellbeing, their life, the support that they have, do they have all the resources that they need.

Do they feel comfortable talking. The things that they should be able to share, but they don’t certainly don’t have to those are totally different mental places to be in versus being an individual contributor inside of an organization. So I, I think us talking about this and you sharing, like why it’s important for you to have unlimited time off is a really important message for people to think about as they move into just people management in general, too.

Michael, you manage people.

Michael Hartmann: I do.

Mike Rizzo: I don’t

Michael Hartmann: No. So the way I try to think about it is I serve those people though. And so that’s not how it was when I first became a people manager. It was in, in, this is something we actually had a guest on I don’t remember [00:16:00] what episode it was a while back. And we talked about I think there’s In terms of leading people, managing people there’s really, most organizations do a really terrible job at identifying the people who would be good at doing that.

And then getting them ready for it because two things happen, if you’re a good individual contributor performer, right? You become identified as a potential manager. And what kind of, what are the things I’ve just recently heard or saw some my post is that really the skill sets for managing and leading people.

Our it’s not just a new, it’s not just a difference set of skills. It’s just a completely different set of skills than you probably had as an individual. Attributor unless you were naturally gifted in some of these things. And I think that’s a real challenge and it can lead to, situations where you have people put in position to, to manage people who are really not prepared for it.

And so I think that can really. It can really hurt an organization along with all the people that are there. And it’s not good for that person either. I know from my [00:17:00] standpoint, it’s interesting Courtney to hear about like your time off with your mom. I just recently had a situation where somebody, we had something happen to somebody in their family and needed to take time off.

We didn’t have unlimited where I work now, but I, the first thing I did was went to.

Mike Rizzo: just go

Michael Hartmann: I didn’t say, just go, I went back to HR to go do we have a policy around this? And does it work for this? It was not a direct family member. And so found out, in fact, we did, I said, then I was like, just go then I said, just go.

And if the policy wasn’t there, guess what I probably would’ve done. I probably would’ve said just go, we’ll figure it out right between the two of us. So my Bo my boss may listen to this who knows, but I didn’t have to go to that step, but I, I just think it’s too important. And part of that is I also would want that for me.

And so a big part of what I think about is, if someone to ask me, how do I manage people? I think the first thing I would say is I try to think about the whole person. And I do think that’s a be like one of the, if there’s gonna be silver linings from the pandemic, I think [00:18:00] one of them is this recognition.

People have like lives outside of work and the idea that they can somehow put this wall in their brain or whatever that separates the two is really doesn’t make sense. According to you’re smiling here, she’s she’s the one who, so did something related to neuroscience. And I was like, she probably gets this right.

That it’s almost impossible to separate these things.

Mike Rizzo: Yeah.

Courtney Chatteron: Yeah. I have to be very I shut off right at five. I don’t check my phone on the weekends. I don’t check working on weekends. I set up boundaries as soon as I join a company and I’m like, I turned into a pumpkin at five o’clock. I am Cinderella. I, they don’t exist anymore. And then, especially for me, it’s also like religious stuff.

So I’m Jewish. So Friday, anything Friday after five I’m not gonna be there. I am resting. I’m observing this ath

Mike Rizzo: nice. That’s good. I think that’s so [00:19:00] important. And I was actually just gonna ask you about like your journey through your career. What are like, I don’t think we have to go through necessarily any of the, like details of when you realize something or not, but I would, I’m interested. in the tactics of what you might have employed to, to try to help yourself.

Like maybe all you maybe all you share with us is that you really love to color and and draw. And that was like your escape but what are the sort of breaks that you build in? Or, we just heard from you, you’re done at five on Friday. what are some of the other things that have worked for you through your journey of, managing mental health?

Courtney Chatteron: I do draw. I do have, I’m very protective of my lunchtime as well. I like to do something during my lunchtime that like gets me outta my own head, whether that’s drawing on my iPad or picking up a book for a little bit. I. I do what I can here and there all throughout the [00:20:00] day I doodle during meetings, which probably drives people crazy, but that’s how I pay attention.

I’m also neuro divergent and I have ADHD. I have to doodle or do something I’m fidgeting with a rock under my desk right now, as we’re recording this because I have to do something to pay attention. So I, what else have I done having a good close confidant at work? Your work besty. I think that’s super important.

I had a couple of those on my last job and they definitely helped keep me sane. And one of them also recommended meditation. So if you’re like really stressed about a presentation or going on a podcast or anything like that, you can take five, 10 minutes, do just go on YouTube type in five minute meditation and just let yourself. And it’ll help you come back into yourself and be less nervous. And it just helps. It’s those little it’s my girlfriend. And I always talk about how it’s always like the crunchy granola, like things that work. And it’s always really [00:21:00] frustrating oh, go outside, go for a walk, talk about my feelings, color.

It’s those things that work. So it’s, that’s what we have to make time.

Michael Hartmann: I think it’s really interesting. I’m glad you shared about the fidgeting and that kind of stuff, because, so I have three, three boys. Two of them have anxiety. One goes to a school that is mostly for kids with dyslexia or ADHD, and usually the package, they usually come together.

And he’s actually, technically doesn’t really have either one, but yet from some childhood trauma stuff, he’s got things that look like it. And. It’s amazing how these kids who struggle at traditional schools because they don’t know how to recognize and deal with it. And it looks like it’s just, I’m, they’re distracted.

They’re not paying attention which is to some degree true because they can’t right. But the how that, how it’s handled at this other school makes such a difference. So I think even though I’ve known people who are dyslexic at this school, they force new parents to go through. Parent education as their student gets in there.

One of ’em was an experience that tried to replicate [00:22:00] what it’s like to be dyslexic. And it was, and it was a, it was maybe 15 minutes. It was, we did a series and that one I walked away. I was exhausted from it. It was, and it was like 15 minutes. And I was like I talked to some other people. I never disliked.

I was like, is this what it’s like? Because oh my God, It’s so hard, like you’re dealing with that. Is that, are you like already? I can’t see it. Courtney’s nodding her head yes. Yep. Does that sound familiar?

Courtney Chatteron: I don’t suffer from suffer. It’s not, that’s like the wrong word. It’s I don’t have dyslexia or anything like that, but with ADHD. Yeah. It’s so relatable. It’s exhausting. If you don’t have some sort of outlet to like stem or. Bounced your leg. I remember sitting in chemistry one year in college.

I always bounced my leg during class because that’s how I paid attention. And I remember a girl next to me, made some like snide remark. And as soon as I stopped bouncing my leg, I fell [00:23:00] asleep in lecture cause I couldn’t pay attention anymore. And so it’s just it’s so hard if I don’t have to help enable my experience.

Michael Hartmann: Now it’s so hard. Like it’s amazing how some people just are not aware of how this could stuff affect. So a small, another small example. One of my kids when he was a little younger, not the one that’s at this other school, but the older one. And we had somebody recommend him chew gum in class, kinda the same thing to help him calm down, like doing chewing or playing with your hands.

Right. Something that would call him and they didn’t allow gum. And we tried to get an exception at the school for him just because, and wouldn’t let us do it. And it just, it was so hard to see him suffering through that. It was just, you know what, it would’ve been such a small thing and I know it’s an exception and they have to deal within what are the other parents and kids want, but it’s do you want that?

Or do you want him to be disruptive? Not because he wants to.

Mike Rizzo: yeah.

Michael Hartmann: that’s just he it’s not something he’s doing intentionally [00:24:00] anyways. It’s crazy. So I’m curious, I know you said that you’re just just starting to share your story and having been in the hospital. Gosh, almost a year ago.

It’s hard to believe right, December. I’m just curious, like how have people been reacting to you sharing this, more public.

Courtney Chatteron: People really like vulnerability. I don’t know whether they like it because it’s just trendy and it’s like, what’s in right now. It’s like deep cuts. And if they understand like the full picture oh, that was a terrible experience. Like I have a lot of trauma from my hospital stay because I went somewhere that wasn’t a good fit.

So there was also that, that I had to unpack during my leave of absence, but people have been really positive. I think the only time I’ve ever had negative. Like feedback on LinkedIn was I I was talking about what Netflix should do to keep subscribers. And I got picked up by LinkedIn news, and then I had people telling me that it’s the L G agenda that’s ruining Netflix.

Mike Rizzo: Oh, my gosh.

Courtney Chatteron: And so I haven’t had any issues with being [00:25:00] vulnerable about my own stories, but other parts of my identity. Absolutely.

Mike Rizzo: Oh boy. just, Ugh. there’s nothing ruining Netflix. Okay. Folks, the content is wonderful, period. Like no, if sands or butts about it, you don’t like it stops subscribing.

Michael Hartmann: This is yeah, I, so I’m glad to hear that. I think. What I like about what do you call it being vulnerable or being willing to share a story that I think I shared with you, like we went through miscarriages, right? And I, when I hear I’ve had other people I work with who have gone through multiple and I reached out and offered to at least I can at least understand a little bit of what you’re going through.

And I think a lot of people go through these scenarios, whether it. Mental health ones or carriages, or, pick the kind of thing like that, that usually comes with some sort of stigma think they’re the only ones. And I think it’s so important to, to know that a, there are people out there who you can reach out to.

Your idea of [00:26:00] having besties, whether that’s at work or elsewhere, I’m, I’ve become a big believer as I’ve gotten older. That one of the examples I wanna leave for my kids is developing a set of. In my case, I want other men to, to be there as my, you wanna call it, brothers or whatever that I can count on, so it’s unfair. I think, to put that all on, I’ve been married for a long time, but there’s think it’s unfair to put all that on that person.

Courtney Chatteron: Sure.

Mike Rizzo: yeah. It’s oftentimes that type of stereotypical role falls into maybe the other spouse, but sometimes it just really shouldn’t. And

Courtney Chatteron: that’s also why I’m a huge advocate for therapy.

Mike Rizzo: Yeah. yeah, I have too.

Courtney Chatteron: have anybody to talk about that stuff. Therapy.

Mike Rizzo: yeah, I think doing a lot of the things that you were sharing with us drawing, reading, going on, those walks Therapy talking it out with someone that’s a bestie at work, or, someone that isn’t close to the vest sometimes is just helpful.

That’s why I call Hartmann every other day. No, I’m just kidding. [00:27:00] no,

Michael Hartmann: Oh, it’s Rizzo again.

Mike Rizzo: He’s man, he’s gonna complain about something. But no, I think I think that is all super, super important in finding those hopefully in our community or rev op co-op or women in revenue, or you name the community out there.

Hopefully you find some folks that, that you can connect with and build those, build that rapport and build those relationships with, cause it really matters. I’m curious from both of your perspectives Courtney, maybe we’ll start with you. Do you think there will ever be a time where it becomes a part of the onboarding journey inside of an organization to have these discussions or at least to create a forum, to be able to have you openly share.

If you choose that you need these special types of, and specials in operative word, it’s not the right word necessarily. It’s just the one I picked, but, have these things that you. Shared more openly Hey, I, I need this, these are my boundaries. Like I, I gotta take a break at lunch.

Like [00:28:00] I’m not gonna work through it ever. Do you think there’ll ever be a place where that’s almost a part of the onboarding or interview process or job description? I don’t know.

Courtney Chatteron: I think partially we’re there because people are starting to talk about these things more. So we’re almost there, I guess now we’re there, but we’re in a place where people are starting to be more open about their needs and especially at work, like what they need to be successful. And we’re also evaluating as a society do we need a five day work week?

And so everything like that is just pushing toward.

Mike Rizzo: You don’t.

Courtney Chatteron: But oh gosh, lost my train of thought now.

Mike Rizzo: sorry.

Michael Hartmann: Way to

Mike Rizzo: We, I know my bad. I just

Courtney Chatteron: it’s the five day work week. It just makes my brain. No, but I think we’re just, we’re talking about things more openly and it is part of it is there are protections for disabilities. I have multiple disabilities. Do I ever actually go through and go to HR [00:29:00] and with documentation and be like, Hey, I like legally need these things.

No, should I potentially but it’s really hard to get certifications. Like you have to get certain written out that you have these conditions and stuff and take them to HR and it can be hard to get them. So that’s why I’m glad, we’re seeing like a little bit of a societal shift.

Mike Rizzo: So we definitely need as a society, as a people, as companies, we need to make that process a little bit easier. Sounds

Michael Hartmann: I think you asked the question should that be part of the, either hiring or job search standpoint? And I think, I don’t know that. I would, so as a hiring person, I would never have a problem with someone who would ask. Do you expect people to be answering your email at nine o’clock at night or on the weekends?

I’d be more than happy to talk through what I think about that. And I’ve with people who work for me. I’ve I try to be explicit about that as well. Cause I’ve appreciated it when I’ve had [00:30:00] managers who said, yeah, what. If the default is they’re sending emails on Saturday and Sunday at this email that did this and yeah, you’re clinicians.

Oh, it must be important cause he’s doing on the weekend. When we actually asked him about it turns out it was like he was just catching up and it just happened to be when he wasn’t expecting us to respond. He was like, if I’m looking for a response, that’s urgent, you’ll know, otherwise don’t worry.

so it was really helpful to have him be explicit about it. I think to me that would be the thing to do. Certainly with the people who you work with is, be really clear about what those are, and if, and I would, the way I would put is it I know Courtney, I might be interested to hear what you’re taking on is I would hesitate to make absolute, so I’m always gonna take lunch from 12 to one.

Now I may try like that may be the. But if I have to adjust because of something be willing to, but I’m gonna be pretty strong about saying I at least need I’m gonna take some time in and around this block of time, because I need that. I [00:31:00] think that’s important. And I’ve actually started doing that with my team and my peers and.

And stuff where I was getting pulled into meetings that I didn’t think I needed to be, and it was wearing me out. And so I finally was like, I’m gonna stop doing that. I told my team, here’s what I’m doing. I’m if we’re in meetings together and we don’t all need to be there, I’m doing a dropout, you represent us and you bring back anything.

If you need me to go in there, if you’re not comfortable, then let me know. And we’ll figure that out. And it really has helped me be able to then block time for me to do other stuff that. Could be more important for the organization and for the team overall.

Courtney Chatteron: Yeah, I, that also goes into like time blocking I on days where I have fewer meetings. I definitely time block so I can get work done. And that’s kind of part of setting boundaries is this is my dedicated working time. I. And indisposed, I can’t join a meeting then. But there are always exceptions.

I definitely don’t have an absolute I must take lunch 12 to one, do not disturb me. I don’t exist. I don’t have that. [00:32:00] I it’s more of a, oh, okay. I’ll just adjust my lunchtime and have my little bit of midday relaxation just a little bit later.

Michael Hartmann: Yeah. Okay. So I think we could probably continue on for a while, but let me wrap things up. So Courtney, when one of the things you and I talked about when we were planning for this is that you were at that time thinking about doing a podcast on this topic. Can you share with our audience, is that still something you’re thinking about or is you started that what’s the story there?

Courtney Chatteron: The story is all of my guests always have conflicts of some kind or we have natural disasters or tornadoes or some kind of thunderstorms. It’s just the stars have not yet aligned. But. It’s going to be coming right now. My stars aren’t aligned. I’ve been fighting a depressive episode, so it’s I get my work done.

And then I take care of myself full time. But it will be called mental health ops. And it’s going to be about mental health in the workplace, whether that’s talking about miscarriages. [00:33:00] Whether you need to take a break from work, take a leave of absence or something and burnout. I just wanna talk about all the taboo things so that people know that they’re not alone.

Michael Hartmann: Love.

Mike Rizzo: I am hopeful that comes to fruition. very hopeful for you. And if it does you make sure to tell us the moment that it happens we will add you to what we’re referring to as the media network quote unquote, which is really just a fancy way to say there’s a website page with lots of really good content that you can go listen to.

that isn’t just OpsCast it’s like all of the other ones. And so we would love to host that show on that page and make sure people have an opportunity to discover. So you let us know the moment that happens.

Courtney Chatteron: Absolutely.

Michael Hartmann: Great. If people wanna keep up with you not to harass you about Netflix, but maybe, you know what you have to say out there on mental health or whatever, is it what’s is there a good place for people to do that? Or what’s the best option there?

Courtney Chatteron: You can find me on LinkedIn. I’m [00:34:00] pretty active on LinkedIn. I check it every single day, but not the weekends.

Mike Rizzo: Good for

Courtney Chatteron: And you can also find me in the marketing app, slack and the rev co-op slack.

Michael Hartmann: Fantastic. Courtney, first off, thank you so much for sharing your story and bringing this up to light, letting us be a part of that sharing that. I have a feeling we’re gonna get a ton of response from this when we actually publish this. So thank you again. And we will look forward to seeing when it comes out of that.

Mike, thank you. As always it’s has been a pleasure. I know that Naomi probably would’ve liked to have been here and thanks to all our listeners out there for continuing to support us and provide ideas. If you want to be a guest or have a suggestion for a guest like Courtney, then please reach out to Mike or Naomi or me.

You’re gonna get us on LinkedIn or on the marketing ops.com community. With that, it’s a wrap. Bye everyone.

Mike Rizzo: By everybody.