What should be included as “Marketing Technology”

We discussed an article (linked below) that talks about what should and should not be considered “MarTech”.  The inspiration for the article is from research published by CabinetM and we welcomed Sheryl Schultz, COO to the show to discuss the article and the report.

Article Here – When Martech Isn’t Martech

Recorded live February 3, 2021.

Hi, I’m Michael Hartmann i’m Naomi Lou and I’m Mike Rizzo. And this is ops cast, a podcast for marketing ops pros and rev ops pros created by the MO Pros. The number one community for marketing operations. Professionals tune into each episode as we chat with real professionals to help elevate you in your marketing operations career.

Hello, everyone. Welcome to episode two of Ops Cast. Joining me today is Michael Hartmann, uh, here in the warm homey state of Texas down in Dallas, running your Mike Rizzo and Naomi Lou hello. Hello everybody. Welcome. Welcome. And we’ve got an interesting topic and I see we’ve got several people already on joining us.

So this is great. Um, for those of you who are on, please let us know if you want to want to talk or speak up. And I think there’s chat options. So if you want to chat us some questions that you want us to cover, please do. Um, so a little background, I think today, today was kind of an, it was not quite impromptu, but something that was prompted by.

I think I saw a LinkedIn post that, um, someone posted about an article that Kim Davis had written it in MarTech today. And it, that that article had to do with what is in MarTech. And it was prompted by a recent report that cabinet and put out called marketing technology, adoption data. And it was a really interesting, uh, thing to see.

And, um, I think we’ve got some folks from cabinet. Em, so we’ll bring the minds shortly. But I think, you know, what, what prompted Kim to write this was, he was surprised at, there were certain things in this report that people considered as MarTech that I think most of us initially probably wouldn’t have thought of it.

Things like YouTube or project management tools like JIRA and asauna and things like that. And just others that I think just on the baking, you know, initial thought, right. We wouldn’t think were MarTech. But, um, I think it really prompted some thinking. I know I’ve kind of got my take, but I’d be curious.

Let’s like to kick things off before we bring in anybody else, you know, Naomi or Mike, one of you, like, how did. Like, what was your initial reaction to this report and kind of how’s it, has it changed any of your thinking about what is MarTech? What’s not, yeah. You know, I actually shared this in the, in the community forum.

Right. Um, when you, when you posted it, um, at community dot the Mo Pro’s dot com, um, I shared, you know, my reaction was like, what on earth am I reading? Um, my initial thought process was. Why, why does this matter? If the tools are doing the job? Like what, why does it matter what category they’re lumped into or how the category is perceived?

And then as I, as I dug further into the article and saw some of the comments that came in in the forum, I realized that like, okay, from a buyer’s perspective and from like a, from an invest investment perspective, um, in your thinking about. Buying tools that your organization, like, maybe the category actually starts, starts to matter a little bit.

And you’re trying to understand, like, how do I set responsibilities for these tools and all that stuff. But, but seriously, like there’s a part of me that says like, Hey, if the tool is doing a job and it’s in, it’s solving the job to be done well, um, than. I don’t, I don’t care if it’s a sales tool or a data and analytics tool.

That’s really, all I care about is, is it solving, solving the problem? Um, but it was just, it’s such a fascinating thing to even think about. Um, so, so that was my initial reaction. I would agree with you, Mike. I mean, I think part of it too is like what purpose versus intent, right? Like the purpose that a tool was built to solve a problem can to solve, like, you know, the, the, the project.

I need to solve the problem is like potentially what someone’s actually using it for. It can be two different things, right? Like we have our mobile phones now, right? Like it was built as a way for people to keep in touch and to call one another. But how many people are actually using it now to actually use it as a phone?

I don’t really call people. I just, I texted her. I like you. Phone as a camera, right? So it’s like, what’s the purpose versus, you know, how people are actually using it can be two different things. Like people use Marketo as a marketing automation platform for the most part, but there’s also people who are using a marketing automation platform to help support the support teams and pro services and to do contract renewals and things like that.

Right. At that point, does it become something else or how does that work? Right. I think it just depends on, you know, your use cases and whatnot. Yeah, totally. It’s funny that you bring up the phone thing last night. I had this moment, uh, just like side note. I was walking out of my garage. I saw this flashlight, uh, sitting on my shelf and I thought, you know, in a pinch, if I had to go downstairs and get a flashlight, at least I know where it is.

And then I was like, wait a minute. My phone is a flashlight.

Yeah. So know like when you thought of it, Naomi is a as a camera because, uh, I remember the first time my family and I went to a place in Colorado that was, we didn’t know it was going to be outside of cell coverage. It basically became an alarm flag and a camera. And what was it? My initial thoughts were a little bit surprised and I think that was normal.

Like just initial reaction was like, wow. I can’t believe these people have these other things that they’re considering MarTech, but then I took a step back and I thought, you know, to two general thoughts, one I’ve had in my own, like I had been able to use cabinet Dan, but I’ve kind of had to manage all the different things that I had in a MarTech stack, if you will.

And I thought about, it was like I had several things that would have also been on that list that most people wouldn’t think is MarTech, but a big part of that would be. I had to manage a budget like it, I paid for it out of my budget, so it needed to be somewhere where I could track it. So that was one.

So there’s just sort of a practical day-to-day manager kind of thing. The other was kind of going back to some of our conversation from episode one. And if you haven’t, if you’re new to this podcast and haven’t listened to it, go listen to it. It’s like just, what is the definition of marketing ops and MarTech and things like that.

It’s still so fluid. I think that the fact that there are all these other things in there. Um, in this report, shouldn’t be a surprise. So what, why don’t we do this? I see, um, we’ve got Cheryl Schultz. I’m gonna bring you on the air, Cheryl. So get ready. Um, Cheryl, nice to have you. Cheryl’s from cabinet and.

And they kind of love to get, um, you know, thoughts from you guys and how you, like, what your reactions were to the report when you initially kind of generated the data out of your user data. Yeah. So thanks a lot for, um, the conversations we’ve had and for all the commentary, we were actually surprised by all the commentary.

But actually we weren’t surprised by the data because we’ve been watching marketing operations teams for a long time, build their stack on our site. And we actually built the directory, um, on cabinet, em, up to about eight or 9,000 products. Now there are 15,000 products in there and the additional products we crowd source.

As people were building their stacks, they asked us to add them. So we have, we cast a very, very wide net when we think about what MarTech tools are in a Stack. And I think it’s important to actually to differentiate maybe between what is MarTech and what’s in a MarTech stack because we see sales enablement in stacks.

We see EdTech in stacks. We see creative. In stacks and, um, anything that a marketing operations team uses to do their job every day is inside that Stack. And, um, you know, Michael, you and I had a side conversation, but one of the examples I gave is some of our clients are large retailers and they have branded credit.

And the platforms that manage those cards need to connect to loyalty platforms and rewards platforms and your email platforms and your, you know, um, personalization platforms. And so, you know, That sits in the MarTech stack alongside of those products, but they’re in different layers of technology. So, um, so to us, the data that we were mining made a lot of sense, but it definitely surprised people who have had this view of Martel.

Being more tech, you know, we see the lines blurring between MarTech and sales tech. Um, I’ve been speaking to lots of revenue, operations leaders over the past few months. And, um, someone actually took me through their Stack last week and showed me the tools they were specifically responsible for and the tools that, um, MarTech you know, was responsible for.

But they’re all managed. In the same tech stack, and I think that’s important to make. Sure. So I think you brought up two interesting, um, things that we hadn’t really touched on one is I think, I think probably, I think Naomi, Mike and I all come from sort of a B2B background and I think you’re touching on the whole B to C space is kind of, has its own set of.

Challenges that’s that’s I think that’s one, the other I’ve, you know, it’s interesting. You brought said, what is MarTech versus what is, you know, what’s in your marketing stack or MarTech stack? I think that’s an interesting distinction. Cause I know in the article that came out, I saw it. I made a note that somebody from.

Reimer smile, smile. I’m sure I’m butchering his name. So apologies. He said something like MarTech used the term technology for marketing, which I think is a little bit towards what you’re talking about, you know, is that how you are thinking about this now at Kevin M? Is it, you know, You know, in the ditch kind of definition.

Like I think that Kim was thinking about, and that we were all came to it from is one thing that’s different from like, what are people actually tracking? That’s part of their technology stack to, you know, some of it is probably core MarTech and some of it’s maybe not what we think about. Yeah. So, you know, so I would say that that’s a good summary.

But, you know, part of the issue is that these platforms, regardless of what you call them are to XL sec ad tech, you know, they’re sharing data and the data is flowing between them and they’re integrated in some way. And you need to account for all of that to make sure that all of the programs. Are actually running.

Right. And so, you know, someone earlier, I think, you know, I think, you know, Mike, you said that, you know, who cares, right. What you need, you know, to mark. Then, let it be there. And we agree. Right. And we agree because on cabinet M you know, organizations are building this stack, right? So we, um, you know, we have over 700 stacks of what we consider to be research worthy data.

Right. We anonymize it, we aggregate it and then we present it. And, you know, in the early days, You know, we were surprised by what people were putting in there, but you know, now it’s two, three years later and we see it all. And even when I’m speaking to, you know, speaking to, um, a marketing ops person team for the first time, and I’m talking about the database, I always say to them, and you’ll also find, you know, a sauna and Trello and JIRA and slack.

And the reason it’s there is people are putting it into their Martex. So, you know, we’re actually seeing that as opposed to making a judgment. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, and, and, you know, what’s interesting is like, um, what, because it’s in the stack, right? And, and I liked the distinction that you made at the beginning of, of when you came on, Cheryl of saying like, there’s, there’s the MarTech stack and then there’s marketing technology in and of itself.

And what’s in the static, maybe inclusive of things that are sales tech or, or data and analytics tools or project and resource management solutions. Right. And I think, I think that’s a really clear, clear way to think about the differentiation between kind of what this article was talking about. And by the way, for those of you who are listening in, if you go to the show page, the article is linked there.

Um, so you can kind of dive into that a little bit more. Um, but. I think making that distinction super helpful. But as I think about, you know, the internal kind of buying committee and, and when somebody, if, if for example, my boss are, you know, was to come to me and say, Hey, like, what are the marketing tools that you need to be able to fulfill on your job?

Like, I would probably refer to that as marketing technology. Right. Um, and I would, I would just lump that into like my MarTech category, which is like super, super important to ensure that we like secure the budget and. All the resources. We need to be able to effectively run our campaigns and our programs.

And that may include things that are outside of the traditional scope of, of like marketing tools, um, quote unquote. So I understand the importance of like trying to categorize these things. Um, but. You know the NSC and I see why it blurs so easily because I need to secure budget. No, it’s so true. And it’s, it’s interesting because, um, you know, we actually, we have a number of different partners and they’re all, um, very different in terms of the clients they serve and what they’re trying to do.

And one of them is a. An agency that supports creative operations. Okay. And I never really, you know, I didn’t really think about creative operations living inside of marketing technology or alongside of it. And you know, what we found in dealing with those, you know, those customers is that, you know, they’re using Workday, right.

So what’s. Is Workday and MarTech tool is worked at a, you know what I mean? So that’s what they’re using for, you know, the client stuff, but work front, you know, it just lives in the middle of their stack, but it touches that MarTech stack in big ways. And you know, and so by being exposed to all of these different.

Um, real stats. It really gives us the opportunity to, you know, have that very wide view. And, you know, we’ve had some interesting discussions over, you know, the last year about, um, you know, about the. Right because, um, it’s big, right? It’s 15,000 tools. And if you go into it, there are over 500 different categories that these tools are indexed into.

But here’s the really crazy thing. As many products as are in there every single time we bring a new company onto cabinet em, into one of the enterprise subscriptions. We ended up with another 10 to 30 products in the database and they. All different categories, how they’re thinking about it. So it’s interesting that you bring that up.

And I know we did talk about this show before and I am still sort of, I literally like right before we got on here. Heard about a report and it talked about the number of SAS applications by company size, other kind of other way. But the enterprise, which I would guess is, you know, by employee count, if you’re going to 10,000 above, they typically at a, at a, that size company has over 1400 SAS.

Apps somewhere in, in the enterprise. Um, and my guess would be a big chunk of those are going to be marketing ones or sales related ones. So it’s, it kind of is not a surprise that you’re getting a ton of those added on. So the interesting thing is, you know, to that point, We, when we look at our average, you know, Stack size, you know, our smallest clients, you know, we’ll have like 50 products in their Stack, but you know, we see stacks and by the way, this is for what they define right.

As their MarTech stack. But then at the high end, you know, you’re looking at over 250. You know, different products. And what’s very, very interesting also is that, you know, there are some companies who, when they bring in, you know, procurement or they bring in it, you know, those people like, oh yeah, we should be doing this too.

And the reality is that, you know, in some cases, um, you know, Marta. Marketing is sharing resources with it. Right? Think about, you know, the implementation of Salesforce. Um, you know, it’s touched by a lot of people in the organization who owns it, where should it live? So, um, I think that what we’re seeing is, you know, marketing operations, Truly coming into its own and I’d loved the last episode.

Okay. For that reason, because, you know, everybody’s trying to figure out, okay, how do you define this? But, you know, marketing operations is coming into its own, you know, organizations. It used to be that large organizations started with a person than a team. But the truth is some not so very large organizations now know they need that resource internally to manage all the technical resource in order to execute their programs.

So, um, you know, so I think we’re going to continue to see some trends. We’re going to continue to mine the data by the way.

Yeah. And put it out. And I appreciate that you referenced the first episode. Thanks for listening, Cheryl. We appreciate that. Um, uh, but also I was, I was like, what, you know, again, selfishly thinking about like stepping back a little bit from. What MO Pros is on a mission to do, um, that I kind of revealed in episode one was, you know, trying, trying to figure out like, what is a certified marketing ops professional.

Um, and to that end like this, this is yet another piece of evidence that points to the importance of, uh, understanding how to work collaboratively across what I, what I refer to as, you know, quote unquote party lines, right between departments. Um, And this is evidence of that, right? The stacks cross these departments constantly.

And so, you know, we need to define what this means as a marketing ops professional, and then as a, as a collective group in this community, really, um, stand for that and, and breed excellence around, um, around this whole subject of, you know, working together and, and cross-functionally and all that stuff. So.

On that topic of party lines though. Like something that I’ve always been curious about is especially as like MarTech and sales tech kind of blends together, and there’s a lot of crossover. Are you guys seeing that a lot of teams are coming together to evaluate technology when you’re putting out like RPS or business requirements and things like that.

Like, who’s leading it, for example, like if you’re doing something, like if you’re evaluating a tool that can fit under both umbrellas, are you seeing a lot of like cross department collaboration? To do these evaluations and who’s leading it, curious about that. Can I jump in? I’m happy to jump. I’d say, go for it, Cheryl.

Well, here I’ll I’ll I’ll share this. I’ll just share this. Like we have an, our organization, um, we have someone that’s been appointed to kind of overseeing all business systems and technology and trying to understand how they work. Um, across the org. Right. And so there’s someone that’s essentially, you know, it’s not procurement, right?

It’s someone who’s quite literally trying to understand the function and purpose of the tools and ensuring that we’re not duplicating. Right. There’s no reason to have a Calendly and a HubSpot sales pro subscription. Right. Cause, cause it has the same functionality. So, so he has that responsibility of trying to consolidate systems and create efficiency.

Um, so for what it’s worth, we actually have someone responsible for that, which I don’t think every ordinarily has, but. I could be wrong. I think on our side, we don’t have that person, or at least not someone who would necessarily know, you know, th the super, super technical ins and outs of what the tool does or doesn’t, or what the needs are.

And so that, that makes it very important that, you know, our marketing ops team and our sales ops team are very tightly aligned. Right. Because then. Going at certain tools together. And it’s not just something that will benefit the marketing ops team, for example, but it has to also benefit, you know, like it’s, especially as all these tools integrate into each other, right.

Because there’s always going to be a downstream effect, things that will plug into Salesforce or plug into Marquetto or all of the other tools that we have in our, in our, um, war chest are, are just going to impact each other. Right. So everyone needs. Yeah, make sure it all plays nice. Yeah. So I actually see that as a trend going forward.

You know, I see business operations. In fact, um, I have a longtime prospect that I spoke to, um, earlier this week. And you know, they are a company that has made somewhere between 30 and 40 different acquisitions in the past few years, sort of crazy, but true. And in each case they need to rationalize the Texas.

And they just put, they took marketing ops, which was working for marketing, created a business operations team and mops now reports to that business ops team. So. Yeah, I think that’s really interesting. Cause I I’ve I’ve I’ve started kind of going because as is the trend of revenue ops that in not, not revenue ops where it’s really just sales ops, but it looks across the different revenue teams.

Um, That I’ve, I’ve kind of gotten to the point where I would tell people, if you were asking me, where should that roll up to, into an organization? I would not say marketing or sales or customer success if they have that. But if you could roll up to, you know, a COO or a CEO level, because it it’s otherwise it’s not gonna, you know, gonna get the, the attention.

It really deserves to be somewhat independent so that it can be looking at. The overall benefit for the organization, not just one marketing or sales team. So I think that’s really an interesting trend that you’re saying. Yeah. So yeah. The other thing I’ll say is, you know, I was on a. You know, I was on another, you know, virtual sort of mops panel.

I’m listening in, um, within the past couple of weeks. And it was interesting because there were three or four panelists. And in every case they basically said they reporting up to revenue ops or they were reporting into demand gen. So I’d be interested in what you guys think about that because I don’t, I don’t see a lot of, you know, mops reporting into demand gen, but, um, that was new.

Yeah, w that’s where it’s always been at, uh, at Mavenlink. Um, I saw, I used to have that role, uh, no longer in that role. I’m a community builder for Mavenlink, but, um, but the, the, the person who’s in that role is still on the demand gen team. So, um, yeah, it’s just kind of always been there, but I, I would, I would pause it that, uh, The, the long-term benefits to the business would be for that individual to be much more closely, closely tied to other operational functions.

Not, not that, not, that’s not to say that he isn’t. Um, cause he certainly is, uh, Creating programs around that is probably pretty critical. Um, but again, not on the team, so I don’t know what they’re doing these days, but yeah, this is cool. I think this, you know, the study and this conversation we’ve had today, you know, it reinforces my belief that the technology part is important, but what’s more important.

And why. The role shouldn’t report report into some subset of a marketing organization or sales organization that would argue that it should be at the CMO or head of marketing level. If it’s going to stay in marketing, if it’s marketing ops, but you got to understand that the processes that are, you know, how are you going to market, uh, Yeah.

What are your goals? Are you heavy, outbound, or you heavy inbound? Are you mix? Are you ABM? Like all those things really matter in that, in what tech stack components you really need. And then add on top of that. It just, it adds this whole nother dimension of not only are you talking about those MarTech tools, but you’re talking about the tools.

Will you say the technology for marketing, right? Or the MarTech stack? You, you actually have to have a really broad. Set of understanding about how all these different things work. And it also reinforces, you know, I think probably all of us believe, right. But marketing ops has sort of always been maybe not always, but Jen is it’s often underfunded and understaffed.

Considering the number of tools and is it people are having being asked to manage. Yes. And so I think this kind of report could help people who are doing that. Yeah. Yeah. That’s interesting. Yeah. And I, I really like what. Right. We tried to get Scott to join us. He said he was busy. Um, uh, but he, so I tweeted him last night.

Right. So very last minute. But I like what he talked about in terms of, uh, I think on the article he quoted, um, training, whether it’s internal training or learning management systems for educating customers as part of marketing, uh, HubSpot academy, for example, lives in the marketing organization and learning management systems technology.

Obviously wasn’t designed purely as MarTech. But it’s an essential part of their MarTech stack. Um, and I think that that speaks very clearly to, you know, there’s a business objective, there’s an outcome that they’re trying to achieve and there’s technology that they need to leverage to execute on that vision.

Um, and, and then that, uh, that subsequently turns into, you know, the conversation of like ensuring that marketing operations or your technology owners are involved in the strategic conversations to best leverage the tools and resources that you’ve acquired. Um, or evaluate solutions to help, uh, accomplish those goals.

Right. And, uh, which, which kind of is a whole other topic of like, are you a technologist or are you kind of a strategist or do you straddle the line differently? And where do you sit in the kind of marketing ops hierarchy of your career development and path and stuff like that? So, um, super fascinating.

And I really, so far, this has been a tremendous conversation. I really appreciate it guys, on the topic of. You know, in investment, in tools and people like it just still boggles my mind every day, how companies can invest. Six seven figures into all the technology and then not invest in the people that’s supposed to run it.

Right? Because the tools that you have at your disposal, they’re only going to be good as, you know, one how they were implemented to the people that are running them. And then three, how much you invest in them to continue their education, to continue to up-level their skills, because this stuff changes all the time, right?

Like new product releases, we’re automating everything. So.

So here’s a dirty little secret. Okay. Most large organizations don’t understand or know the complete skill proficiency of their teams, you know, and what’s fascinating is that, you know, we have a companion product called skill stacks. It’s right in cabinet M anyone who’s an enterprise user can use skill stacks.

But, you know, after organizations get their arms around the technology, you know, what we try and direct them to do is actually get their marketers in so they can start looking to see who knows how to use marketing automation. How many Marquetto Eloqua, Pardot users, you know, do they have, because you don’t want to know that you only have one on the day that person turns to noticing.

Right. And so, you know, doing that starts to inform what you need to do in terms of hiring, but also educating the people that you have in place. You know, it’s critical. To take care of those people, because ultimately it rolls right up to your stack and how efficient it can be. I’m also a big, I’m also a big believer in not just educating people that are directly touching the tool because there’s always second and third degree people, right?

You need to let them know what is the art of the possible right. Technology adoption, because people that are not necessarily admins of Marquetto for example, but maybe they’re content writers or they’re, you know, Lead development. People who are trying to come up with strategy to get net new logos, like they need to know what the tools can do so that they can work with the people who are actually doing the execution.

So they also need to kind of be brought into the fray. Otherwise that gap gets bigger and bigger, right? Yeah. Or at a bare minimum, be comfortable asking. Uh, con always asking, is it possible for us to do X, Y, Z next? Right. Um, and just, you know, Hey, there’s this like thing that I’m thinking about, and I really need to try to reach this segment of our audience.

How, how do you, how do you think we could go about doing that? And do we have the tools in place? And like, I feel like the majority of the time, the answer is like, yes, there’s probably a way to get there. Um, but like, let’s do it optimally without. And how much time do you have. Right. Yeah. By tomorrow. Yeah.

30 minutes ago. I’m sure there is what I’ve had to say. No, it’s not possible, but you know, almost always as possible, but you’re right. Like it’s how, like what’s the right way to get there and do it. That’s a different question. And I think that’s where you also need to understand what your capabilities are, both in the technology and the people share an interesting thing that you brought up.

You want those people to get to be where they’re consultated. Right. And I think this is a mistake, actually, that a lot of early stage companies make is that they bring in people who can do Salesforce or they can admin Marquetto or they can, I admin all these things that said, you know, they may not be in a position to go, oh, Yeah, I’m not going to just say, okay, someone says, we’re going to go do X, right.

Do this campaign to our customers, and then not realize how that may actually be hard because your data’s a mess. Right. So how do you, and knowing those kinds of things. So I think it would be beneficial for companies to kind of look beyond like, oh, we need somebody who’s junior. Who’s going to be hands-on.

But actually like, we need somebody who can. You know, be that coach kind of from your coach, maybe to understand all that. Yeah, no, I love that. Uh, Steve, thanks for your contribution. Uh, Steve wrote in, uh, saying marketing ops, isn’t just about tech and business. There’s a people aspect to MO Pros need to also focus on product adoption and acceptance.

They need to know. Products are used and used. Well, they need to consider what happens when stakeholders leave the organization. What happens to the products that those stakeholders championed or fought for, et cetera. I totally agree with you actually, I’ve seen this executed beautifully, um, shout out to our guy, uh, Harris on our team and client success.

Who’s in charge of our Gainsight platform and he actually regurgitates all the information and the product releases and updates and distributes that out to the client success division to ensure that they understand the power of the tool that they have at their fingertips. And what is. Yeah. So I totally agree.

Like, so he’s just on the client success ops side of things. Um, MO Pros also need to, to operate in that way too. Um, so Steve spot on it. I appreciate that. Yeah. Well, this has been fun. I, you know, I think we always look to try to keep these around 30 minutes. Um, uh, you know, if anybody else has anything else to add or say, uh, otherwise maybe we could wrap it up and.

Call for, I definitely want to know what we want to talk about next. So if anybody has ideas and you’re in the community, feel free to message us or message us on LinkedIn or tweet at us or whatever. So if you, if you wanted, you know, mine are provide ideas. The best way to do it is to go out and join in the community, the MO Pros.

So it’s Nemo pros.com. K E M P R O s.com. Um, and if you want to kind of keep track of the sows, you, you know, how did get to this page, but also you can go into the MO Pros dot com slash ops Katz, and you can check out past episodes and you’re able to schedule those ahead of time in the future. We will do that sometimes we’ll just spin them up.

So join us when you get. And uh, with that, I think. Yeah. Thanks everyone. Great conversation. Thanks. Thanks everybody.